Last Monday's New Hampshire Debate

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Lord Jim
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Last Monday's New Hampshire Debate

Post by Lord Jim »

Before giving my assessment of the performances, an observation about the format.

I realize that it's always a problem to get politicians (especially those running for President) to not turn answers to questions into infomercials, but it seems to me that CNN and John King went overboard in trying to limit responses from the candidates. Every response for every segment of the debate was supposed to be limited to 30 seconds, (And King did a really good job of jumping on the respondents to prevent them from exceeding this) and it's hardly fair to criticize people for not being "substantive" when you give them so little time to respond. And a format like this is doubly unhelpful at this stage in the campaign when part of what the public service these debates should be performing is to provide voters with a chance to get an introduction to the candidates, what they are like, who they are, and how they handle themselves under pressure. That process is certainly not well served with these kind of response limitations.

The ostensible reason for why CNN did this was to provide time for more questions from the participants at the "Town Hall" meetings the network had set up around the state. (I have to say that personally, I'm not a big fan of these "average people ask the questions" formats. The questions tend to be either too softball, too general, or just plain stupid...I think a format where you have a small group of journalists asking questions, and follow-up questions is far more informative and illuminating; but I digress) But if more audience participation was there goal, they simply could have had King ask fewer questions.

That having been said, here my winners, losers, and who cares:

The Big Winner: Mitt Romney

Romney came across far better than the stiff, snappish, and defensive way he appeared in these debates four years ago. He exuded the easy going, comfortable persona of the confident front runner, and even took numerous opportunities to say nice things about his opponents. He declined every chance to criticize the others on the stage and instead stayed focused on the incumbent, which is exactly what a front runner is supposed to do.

A new NBC/WSJ poll has Romney starting to pull away from the pack. He leads with 30%, Palin comes in a poor second with 14%...If you take Palin out, His lead jumps to 43% with Bachmann running a distant second at 11% . However, while this is good news for Romney he still remains theoretically vulnerable since 74% of the respondents also say they could change their mind.


The Little Winner: Michelle Bachmann


If you knew nothing about Bachmann prior to this debate, you might easily think, "gee this is somebody I ought to really take a look at" ...no gaffs, no over the top rhetoric; she came across as poised, serious minded, and even gracious.

She also declined to take shots at Romney; which makes me think that she may be the one who's "running for Vice-President"...(Though if Romney is the nominee, I have to think freshman Florida Senator Marco Rubio would have the inside track....Young, charismatic, Hispanic, from a key state, and perceived as more conservative than Romney, he bring s a huge amount of pluses to table if Romney head the ticket)

Bachmann has no chance to actually win the nomination, but she undoubtedly helped herself Monday night with the "movement" wing of the GOP electorate, and could turn in strong performances in Iowa and possibly South Carolina. Bachmann has often been referred to as "Palin light"; but the reality is that it's probably the other way around. Bachmann is more intelligent that Palin, more articulate, better educated, and far more disciplined. She also has some top tier political advisers, and she actually takes their advice.

The Big Loser: Tim Pawlenty

Pawlenty needed a homerun, and instead he went down without even swinging. More than any of the other candidates, he really needed to show some pulse, and take Romney on, if he was going to emerge as the serious alternative to Romney. He did neither of these things. In fact he not only did neither of these things, he did neither of these things spectacularly. Not only did he decline to take any shots at Romney, he even back peddled so hard on his earlier criticism of Romney on health care, that he seemed to be saying that his use of the phrase "Obamney Care" on Face The Nation a day earlier had been a gaffe. He came across so bland that he made former British Labour Party leader Gordon Brown look like firebrand by comparison.

While it's early in the cycle for voters, this debate was extremely important for Pawlenty because there's a lot of Republican money folks sitting on the sidelines looking for a candidate to back. It's impossible to imagine that his performance inspired a lot of these folks to reach for their check books. He blew it big time.

His poor performance, (coupled with Gingrich's staff meltdown last week) probably makes it all the more likely that Texas Governor Rick Perry will enter the race. Perry is a dynamic speaker and if he got in, with the softness of Romney's support, he could probably make a race of it. He could certainly raise the money to compete effectively.

And if he were to be nominated, he'd have a very potent case to make for himself in the general election, given the current economic environment. Over the past 10 years that he has been in office, Texas has added a net 730,000 private sector jobs. No other state has added even 100,000, Over 250,000 of those jobs have been added in the past year.

http://www.bizjournals.com/bizjournals/ ... years.html

The claim is made by his detractors that he achieved this by wooing businesses away from other states. Of course if the Obama campaign were to make that charge, Perry would have a great comeback line available to him: "Yes, and if I'm elected President, I'll create jobs by bringing them back here from other countries!"

That, (accurate or not) would probably get him standing ovations, given the current national mood. Barring something really unforeseen, jobs creation is likely to be the 800 pound gorilla issue in 2012, and it's an issue where Obama is extremely vulnerable.

The Little Loser: Herman Cain

It's tough to make yourself look really bad in only 30 seconds , but Herman managed to do it. He outlined a truly bizzare position when asked about hiring Muslims for his administration, (He won't put Muslims who "want to kill us" in his cabinet....well, thanks Herman, that's certainly a relief...hopefully if you're elected, you won't appoint any Christians, Jews or atheists who "want to kill us" to your cabinet either...as a matter of fact, it seems to me that not "wanting to kill us" should probably be at the top of any President's list of requirements for their cabinet appointees) and he badly flubbed several other things as well. His performance will probably help raise Bachmann's appeal with social conservatives.

The Who Cares:

Newt Gingrich: Newt didn't do that badly but his whole campaign has collapsed, he can't raise money, and he has an approach to campaigning that makes Fred Thompson look like a workaholic....total toast.

Ron Paul: Once again wowed his solid six percent support with his eccentricities. So what else is new?

Rick Santorum: Seriously, who cares?

So there you have it..

As always, fair, balanced, and unafraid..... 8-)
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Long Run
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Re: Last Monday's New Hampshire Debate

Post by Long Run »

It is hard for little known politicians to recover when they make a bad early impression, so it is good to hear how some of these names are shaking out.

As for Perry, he will have the added (unfair) burden of proving he is not like Bush 43. On a more substantive matter, while he can point to Texas doing as well as any state in riding out the bad economy, presidents and governors get way too much credit/blame for how the economy is doing. I have not seen any break down of the drivers of the Texas economy, but it is heavy in the oil bidness and oil has been a great over the last 4 years. Recall how Dukakis took credit for the Massachussetts "Miracle" in the 80's, which was due in large part to increased federal defense spending (which he opposed) and the shift to the information economy which the Boston area with all its research institutions had a head start in capturing. He pretty much had nothing to do with any of that; wonder how Perry actually factors into the Texas story?

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Lord Jim
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Re: Last Monday's New Hampshire Debate

Post by Lord Jim »

presidents and governors get way too much credit/blame for how the economy is doing.
I completely agree, Long Run. Presidents and Governors, (and Mayors for that matter) frequently get the blame/credit for things that are largely or entirely beyond their control.

But it's a fact of contemporary political life that this is so, and therefore the calculus of this credit/blame, fully deserved or not, will have a major impact on the election results.
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rubato
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Re: Last Monday's New Hampshire Debate

Post by rubato »

Why would any sane person elect the party who caused the worst catastrophe in 80 years? Who have never admitted it? Who say they will do the same stupid things all over again?

yrs,
rubato

Andrew D
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Re: Last Monday's New Hampshire Debate

Post by Andrew D »

It's always nice to see a political assessment made by someone who made the worst possible political judgment in all of American electoral history.

Maybe Romney "exuded the easy going, comfortable persona of the confident front runner". Maybe he looked like a sleazy little used car salesman.

Maybe Ron Paul "wowed his solid six percent support with his eccentricities". Maybe he was the only genuine conservative on the whole panel.

But don't ask me.

Ask someone who in November of 2004 cast the single stupidest, the single most anti-American ballot he could.

He voted for George W. Bush.

A second time.

Four years after the person who actually won the 2000 election was denied his rightful office.

After four years in which Bush managed to make the Carter presidency look like a smashing success. After four years of an administration more incompetent than Buchanan's. After four years of an administration more corrupt than Grant's.

He voted for four more years of that.

Yeah, he sometimes makes astute observations.

But when it comes to judgments?
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Gob
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Re: Last Monday's New Hampshire Debate

Post by Gob »

I too agree with Long Run. The time scale and discontinuity of political influence, especially with the insane overlap of US Presidential / congress elections vs world events, does not make for easy praise/blame distribution.

I have to add, Andrew, what is your view on the points, we all know your fucking views on Jim for Christ's sake.
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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Lord Jim
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Re: Last Monday's New Hampshire Debate

Post by Lord Jim »

I have to add, Andrew, what is your view on the points, we all know your fucking views on Jim for Christ's sake.
I guess that means he's lifted his leg in this thread as well....
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Lord Jim
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Re: Last Monday's New Hampshire Debate

Post by Lord Jim »

The time scale and discontinuity of political influence, especially with the insane overlap of US Presidential / congress elections vs world events, does not make for easy praise/blame distribution.
Well, it's far from perfect Strop, but I'm not sure how a system where a government can call an election any time it sees conditions as most favorable to its re-election is an improvement....
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Gob
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Re: Last Monday's New Hampshire Debate

Post by Gob »

Lord Jim wrote: The Who Cares:

Newt Gingrich: Newt didn't do that badly but his whole campaign has collapsed, he can't raise money, and he has an approach to campaigning that makes Fred Thompson look like a workaholic....total toast.
The BBC commentator on US politics agrees;
Listening to Newt Gingrich at the Republican Leadership Conference in New Orleans, I fast came to the conclusion that he's given up all hope of becoming the Republican candidate for president.

Don't get me wrong. He wasn't downbeat or glum. He didn't bomb. Far from it. His speech went down a storm at the event. He was funny and biting, deftly mixing high principle with low invective.

But he sounded much more like a campaign manager selling a strategy than a man trying to become president


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13813682
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

rubato
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Re: Last Monday's New Hampshire Debate

Post by rubato »

Still waiting for the "all stupid" party to explain their behavior.

Waiting and waiting.

waiting waiting waiting waiting waiting waiting waiting waiting waiting waiting waiting waiting waiting waiting waiting waiting waiting waitingwaiting waiting waitingwaiting waitingwaitingwaitingwaitingwaitingwaitingwaitingwaitingwaitingvwaitingwaitingwaiting

yrs

rubato

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Lord Jim
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Re: Last Monday's New Hampshire Debate

Post by Lord Jim »

Listening to Newt Gingrich at the Republican Leadership Conference in New Orleans, I fast came to the conclusion that he's given up all hope of becoming the Republican candidate for president.

Don't get me wrong. He wasn't downbeat or glum. He didn't bomb. Far from it. His speech went down a storm at the event. He was funny and biting, deftly mixing high principle with low invective.

But he sounded much more like a campaign manager selling a strategy than a man trying to become president


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13813682
I think that's fair...

Gingrich can make an eloquent case for change.....

He just doesn't make much of a case for "Gingrich"....
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Joe Guy
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Re: Last Monday's New Hampshire Debate

Post by Joe Guy »

Andrew D wrote:It's always nice to see a political assessment made by someone who made the worst possible political judgment in all of American electoral history.
I agree.

It's Lord Jim's (and his ilk's) fault that Dubya was elected for a second term.

I voted for John Kerry.

If it weren't for people like LJ, John Kerry (who I understand spent some time in Vietnam) would have led the U.S. to economic and war-free bliss.

As I recall, John Kerry was a Vietnam veteran.

He served in Vietnam.

There's no way he would have made any bad decisions while running this country after all he learned while he was in charge of a Swift Boat.

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Re: Last Monday's New Hampshire Debate

Post by Andrew D »

Gob wrote:I have to add, Andrew, what is your view on the points, we all know your fucking views on Jim for Christ's sake.
My view on what "points"?

My view on which disgusting little right-wing piece of shit might not be quite as bad as another disgusting little right-wing piece of shit?

My view on the "points," I guess, is what it always has been: The top priority for America is keeping the Republicans out of power. If we can do that, we have a chance of remaining a decent coutry. If we cannot, we're fucked.
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Gob
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Re: Last Monday's New Hampshire Debate

Post by Gob »

So which of these do you see as the most dangerous (ie most likely to win) candidates? Which candidate, should they win would have the most dangerous to US interests (as you see it) mandate and plans? Which out of them al would you like to see win, as they are most likely to have a bi-partisan or centre ground prospectus?

There's a lot that can be debated here.
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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Re: Last Monday's New Hampshire Debate

Post by Andrew D »

The most likely to win?

Among the Republicans?

I hope to God, if there is a God, that none of them is likely to win.

Sorry, Gob, but I don't think that you know what it is like to live here. (And why should you? You don't live here.)

Either in the UK or in Australia, is there a major party -- a party that can and sometimes does actually end up in control -- that wants to bankrupt your government?

Is there a major party that takes seriously a guy who wants to imprison doctors who perform abortions?

Could a guy who wants to imprison doctors who perform abortions get elected to the upper house of your national legislature?

Rick Santorum did. He was a US Senator. He is running for President. Okay, he's not topping the list of most likely to win, but he is taken seriously as a contender.

Could people who want to dismantle Australia's public education system be taken seriously as candidates for national office in Australia? We've got them here, and they are taken seriously, and they often win.

Could someone who wants the Bible's creation story to be taught in public schools as another "theory" right up there with the theory of evolution be taken seriously in Australia? Here, these people can end up running -- and have ended up running -- school boards.

And it goes on and on. It never stops.

Every morning, I wake up in a country hovering precariously on the brink of being taken over by loony-fringers.

This is a country where the government can seriously contend that if it uses microphones placed outside your house to listen in on your conversations, it hasn't invaded your privacy, because the microphones were outside your house. They didn't put the microphones inside your house, so they weren't invading your privacy. Yes, thank God, if there is a God, the government lost that one, but it was a close call. There were judges actually willing to swallow that line.

And the very people calling for a right-wing takeover of my country are living a lie. They are happily ensconcing themselves in places known for the progressive values which they decry. So we see, even here on this board, a guy who is constantly trumpeting the supposed "virtues" of right-wingism choosing to raise his children in San Francisco.

Why isn't he raising his children somewhere where most people actually agree with him? Because he does not want to condemn his children to a childhood spent in a place like that.

And it's not just he. I see it around me every day. People bitching about how awfully "liberal" things are.

Okay, so why do you choose to live here? Why don't you live in, say, northern Idaho, where most people agree with you? "Well, the schools are so much better here."

Every day, I confront this sort of thing.

In my country, the right-wing States feed on the progressive States. The States that are forward-thinking and vote progressively pay more into the national government than they take out of it. The States that are backward-thinking and vote Republican take more out of the national government than they pay into it.

And yet, the people in the leeching States are the ones who clamor the loudest about government's being a big burden. They are the ones who whine the most about the government's taking too much of their money.

But if it weren't for the government's taking a whole bunch of other people's money and giving it to them, they'd be broke.

Every day, I have to listen to one pathetic little twat after another whine about taxes, when were it not for the taxes I pay, there would be no food on his family's table.

I'm supporting him. And he's bitching about it. And there's a party spewing the same shit that he does. And that party might well win.

Is that true where you are?
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Gob
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Re: Last Monday's New Hampshire Debate

Post by Gob »

Not at all Andrew, it sounds horrible.
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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Re: Last Monday's New Hampshire Debate

Post by Lord Jim »

One candidate I haven't talked about is Jon Huntsman, the former Utah Governor and Ambassador to China...

I really didn't know a whole lot about him, except for the fact that he seemed to be the darling of Liberal media pundits, which made me immediately suspicious; Liberal media pundits not generally being known for having the best interests of the GOP at heart....he's definitely the favorite Republican candidate on MSNBC....(It gave me the impression that maybe he was trying to be a John Anderson type candidate; the last Republican Presidential contender that Liberal media pundits were fond of)

I did a little research on him and his positions over the weekend and he's really not as bad as I originally thought; but he's got some huge hurdles to overcome...

Being Obama's Ambassador to China in and off itself might not be a deal breaker, but apparently there are some letters he wrote to him that have come to light where he heaps effusive, gushing praise on him. In
addition, since he was serving as Ambassador to China, there probably some communications where he gives praise to them as well. (Saying nice thing about the country you're serving in to the leaders of that country is part of what Ambassadors do)

Having a record of praising Obama and praising China are not two things that tend to endear a candidate to the average Republican primary voter. (Though he has been back peddling hard; he's recently called Obama's Presidency a "failure" on economic policy, and he claims that in his time as Ambassador he was tough with the Chinese regime)

In any event, those letters he wrote Obama will not only be a big obstacle for him in terms of winning the nomination, but if he should get it, the Obama campaign is sure to use it in the general election in a bid to suppress Conservative voter turnout. (Obama political guru David Axelrod signaled as much on one of the Sunday talk shows this morning when he said he "puzzled" by Huntsman's recent criticisms given all the "nice" things he had said about him)

Supposedly Huntsman is an effective speaker and debater, (I've never seen a speech of his or an interview of more than a couple of minutes) I guess that will be seen as the campaign goes forward.

I also have no idea how effective he is at raising money, though again the claims have been made that he'll be able to raise what he needs to make a credible effort.

Personally, I'm going to take a wait and see attitude on him and see how he performs, and what sort of reception he gets.
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dgs49
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Re: Last Monday's New Hampshire Debate

Post by dgs49 »

Andrew, are you ill? Or is your dislike for the cyber-character called, "Lord Jim" so intense that it causes you to think like a high school sophomore? Have you lost your job? You seem to have unlimited time to waste here on this BBS.

Some of your statements and "points" are so ill-considered it appears you are channeling editec.

"Is there a major party that takes seriously a guy who wants to imprison doctors who perform abortions?"

When, exactly, did Senator Santorum propose the (a) Constitutional Amendment, and (b) the legislation to make this a reality? It must have been off my radar screen. And considering this further, once the Constitutional Amendment and law were passed, can one even imagine a licensed physician who would, in the face of all that, perform abortions? It is as though you believe that "performing abortions" were a genetic, immutable trait.

And how, exactly, would it be possible for ANYONE in the position of POTUS to "dismantle [America's] public education system," when that public education system is, according to my copy of the United States Constitution, "...reserved to the States..."? And even in YOUR distorted world view, the Feds are nothing more than onlookers and contributors to the public education system, which is PRIMARILY the function of the respective States and the District of Columbia (Oh, yeah!).

And did you miss the "news" that the Barry O'Bama administration is taking pretty much the same stance (i.e., the "adult" stance) with respect to the Patriot Act as the Bush43 Administration?

What we really need, I suppose is four more years under a President who pissed away a couple trillion dollars to save the jobs of superfluous government workers, bail out bankrupt car companies, and "invest" in non-existent "shovel ready" construction projects - all while the unemployment rate was galloping northward - AND WANTS TO DO IT AGAIN!

A President who decried our involvement in Iraq, yet is embarking on an unauthorized, unconstitutional, illegal, multi-billion dollar assassination attempt in Libya?

A president whose reaction to the greatest government fiscal crisis in history by proposing keep every unsustainable entitlement program JUST THE WAY IT IS? With not even a clue about how it's going to be paid for?

A President whose Secretary of Labor is, as we speak, attempting to shut down a multi-billion dollar manufacturing facility for no reason other than the Union Bosses at Boeing have demanded it?

Right, Andrew. Let's stay the course. We like the way things are going, don't we?

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Re: Last Monday's New Hampshire Debate

Post by Andrew D »

I watched Santorum say this:
I believe that any doctor who performs an abortion — I would advocate that any doctor who performs an abortion should be criminally charged for doing so. I have never supported criminalization of abortion for mothers, but I do for people who perform them.
That was a week ago yesterday.
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Re: Last Monday's New Hampshire Debate

Post by Liberty1 »

Sorry LJ, Romneys a snooze fest
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