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Don't drink the water - not just in Mexico anymore

Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 3:04 am
by Scooter
Apparently not in San Francisco either:
San Francisco's H20 is chemically treated with chloramine and radiated with ultraviolet light before it hits local pipes, but unlike other city water supplies — such as the East Bay Municipal Utility District water in Oakland — our water is not filtered, which means run through a screen to remove impurities, just like that empty Brita pitcher in your fridge but on a larger scale.

Spreck Rosekrans, an environmentalist and water expert, reports that during San Francisco's process certain microorganisms, such as the protozoans that cause giardia and cryptosporidiosis, are not entirely killed off. The water is perfectly healthy for most of us, but not necessarily for those with HIV, AIDS, or weakened immune systems.
Meaning most old people, those being treated for cancer, etc.

Did I inadvertently jump in a time machine, or is this not the 21st century? Crypto-fucking-sporidium in the water? What rocket scientist thought allowing that would be a good idea?

Re: Don't drink the water - not just in Mexico anymore

Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 5:22 am
by BoSoxGal
I ingested giardia once - in the tiniest mouthful of camp faucet water used to brush my teeth. I didn't even swallow. Two weeks later I was the sickest I've ever been in my life and it took several doses of Cipro to kill it. That is some nasty stuff - I lost 15 lbs in less than two weeks. Would only wish it on somebody really nasty.

Municipal water sources should be free of that kind of crap.

Re: Don't drink the water - not just in Mexico anymore

Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:15 am
by The Hen
I have suffered the same bsg. Only it was from the tank water supplied to my (then) rural house that was at fault.

Talk about shitting liquid needles! On second thoughts ..... don't

Re: Don't drink the water - not just in Mexico anymore

Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:27 am
by Sean
So I take it that you're looking forward to coming to stay with us and living on tank water again for a while? ;)

Re: Don't drink the water - not just in Mexico anymore

Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 8:59 am
by The Hen
ha! I am looking forward to it immensely.

I could do with dropping ten kilos.

:lol:

Re: Don't drink the water - not just in Mexico anymore

Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:38 am
by Sean
I'll try to remove the dead pigeons from the tank before you arrive...

Re: Don't drink the water - not just in Mexico anymore

Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:49 pm
by dgs49
The lack of filtration has nothing to do with the presence of biologicals. These are generally treated with chemicals, but can also be killed/neutralized by boiling the water. Many biologicals can live in a sand filter or easily swim through. One might also keep in mind that between the water treatment plant and your dwelling place, there are thousands of feet of pipe containing sludge deposited over many years, and your drinking water travels through these nasty pipes on its way to your kitchen sink. So even if the water was 100% pure (which it cannot be) when it left the WTP, it has been compromised in the pipes regardless. And that doesn't even consider the chemicals that leach out of the pipes themselves, even if they had been sterilized the previous day. I know people who would NEVER drink any of the first gallon or so of water that comes out of the faucet first thing in the morning, for fear of these leached chemicals and minerals.

Still, anyone who is in a high-risk group can easily avoid danger by either drinking bottled water or boiling the water that is to be drunk.

A constant nagging problem in the reportage of such phenomena is the tremendous sensitivity of state-of-the-art instrumentation. They can find impurities in some cases down to a few parts per billion.

As we all know, toxicity is almost entirely related to DOSAGE. The human digestive system can tolerate just about anything, provided the dosage is low enough. But when reporter is hard up for a story, s/he can easily get headlines by writing an article stating - truthfully - that the local water supply contains arsenic, bugs, heavy metals, or what-have-you.

There are lots of better things to worry about than infinitesimal quantities of bad stuff in your drinking water.

Re: Don't drink the water - not just in Mexico anymore

Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:09 am
by rubato
If the water supply really was as unsafe as the OP suggests there would be an epidemic.

There isn't.

Find a real problem to address.

yrs,
rubato

Re: Don't drink the water - not just in Mexico anymore

Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:48 am
by quaddriver
dgs49 wrote: The human digestive system can tolerate just about anything, .

I was at the 'Halton Hilton' tonight, testing that theory.

Re: Don't drink the water - not just in Mexico anymore

Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:51 pm
by Scooter
dgs49 wrote:The lack of filtration has nothing to do with the presence of biologicals. These are generally treated with chemicals, but can also be killed/neutralized by boiling the water.
Both cryptosporidium and giardia are protozoa which at a certain stage of development are encapsulated in a cyst. This makes them resistent to chemical disinfection.
Many biologicals can live in a sand filter or easily swim through.
A cyst does not "swim", and if filters are properly calibrated and maintained they can do the job. And of course much both organisms are much larger than bacteria or viruses.
One might also keep in mind that between the water treatment plant and your dwelling place, there are thousands of feet of pipe containing sludge deposited over many years, and your drinking water travels through these nasty pipes on its way to your kitchen sink. So even if the water was 100% pure (which it cannot be) when it left the WTP, it has been compromised in the pipes regardless.
One would presume that the quality of the water once distributed would also be tested...The possibility that water quality might be compromised down the line is no excuse for not properly treating the water in the first place.
And that doesn't even consider the chemicals that leach out of the pipes themselves, even if they had been sterilized the previous day.
And all of that stuff is subject to regulation as well.
Still, anyone who is in a high-risk group can easily avoid danger by either drinking bottled water or boiling the water that is to be drunk.
In Milwaukee in 1993, a problem at a water treatment plant caused over 400,000 people to get cryptosporidosis. The implications for high risk groups are more about severity (they are more likely to end up in hospital or dead). And of course, just because a healthy person might not get sick does not mean they aren't able to infect someone else.
As we all know, toxicity is almost entirely related to DOSAGE. The human digestive system can tolerate just about anything, provided the dosage is low enough.
Because they are encapsulated in a cyst, both organisms can pass through the digestive tract without being affected by stomach acid, etc., that might otherwise reduce the virulence. It is possible to get sick from injesting only one giardia or less than ten crypto cysts. Compare that to the hundreds of thousands of bacteria that need to get inside you to cause disease, and you might be less cavalier.
But when reporter is hard up for a story, s/he can easily get headlines by writing an article stating - truthfully - that the local water supply contains arsenic, bugs, heavy metals, or what-have-you.
There are reports coming out the wazoo about the issues with SF's drinking water. This isn't someone in search of a cause. The SF water utility has been doing PR on steroids for years to assure people that they are on top of it.

What it comes down to, of course, is money. They don't want to spend the hundreds of millions of dollars it will take to install filtration systems in the affected plants.
There are lots of better things to worry about than infinitesimal quantities of bad stuff in your drinking water.
It's easy to say until it turns out to be enough to make you sick.
rubato wrote:If the water supply really was as unsafe as the OP suggests there would be an epidemic.

There isn't.

Find a real problem to address.
Does a reported rate of disease four times higher for crypto and over five time higher for giardia, compared to Los Angeles, give you any cause for concern?

It's interesting, in that same letter it says that the new UV system they are wanting to install will allow them to reach the target of reducing the levels of giardia and cryptosporidium by 99%. That sounds great, except the EPA standard for giardia is 99.9%. Was this an error in drafting the letter, or a Freudian slip? One would hope they wouldn't be planning to allow levels of organisms ten times the allowable standard.The way they handle it in the annual report is interesting. When they talk about the types of contaminants in drinking water, they conveniently don't mention protozoa among the microbial contaminants. They say in the narrative that they detected "very low levels" of cryptosporidium, but they never said what those levels were, justifying hiding the information because of the uncertainty of determining whether the samples found were alive or dead. BUT they felt it necessary to include TWO warnings about the potential dangers of improperly treated water on the immune compromised. Hmmm, according to what I've been reading, that's only a requirement in cases where there has been a breach of a standard. Are they just taking out insurance in the event that something may go wrong in the future, or do they know something now that they aren't telling?

Re: Don't drink the water - not just in Mexico anymore

Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 7:45 pm
by dgs49
Typical Scooter reply: being disagreeable without actually disagreeing with anything.

One interesting and telling phrase he used was, "...They don't want to spend the hundreds of millions of dollars it will take to install filtration systems in the affected plants."

Who is this "they" he is referring to? It is as though the Water Treatment Authority is some disconnected, divine entity with mountains of cash that it is trying to hang onto.

There is no "they." If "hundreds of millions" (poppycock) must be spent to build filters, it is the ratepayers of San Francisco who must ultimately pay. He excoriates the public servants who have nothing personally to gain, but are trying to spend public money wisely, not pissing away a mountain of SanFranciscans' money to fight a "menace" that MIGHT make a FEW people sick every once in a while. Are people dying in the streets?

It is analogous to the CSO menace that terrorizes a lot of eastern cities. In past decades, it was common practice to hook up storm drains and gutters to the town's sanitary sewer system. As a result, during heavy rains one often had the wastewater (poop) treatment plants overwhelmed with influent, causing them to bypass the plant and send the "brown water" directly to the local river or stream.

Where people, swim, fish, and otherwise recreate.

The solution is to force residents to redirect their storm drains to a storm sewer system, which can cost the homeowner thousands, and cost the municipality millions to implement on a large scale. Nationally, it's hundreds of billions of dollars to correct.

But the real danger to the public is minimal. What percentage of the population recreate or fish in that particular estuary, after heavy storms? And the fact is that the natural bioligical neutralization process that is accelerated in a wastewater treatment plant will actually continue in the river and within a few days the danger is gone.

So if you are a local politician, do you tell the voters/taxpayers that they are going to have to pony up a couple thousand dollars per household, and pay higher sewage rates for the rest of the natural lives to cure this problem?

Or do you tell people they have to stay out of the river for a couple days following every heavy storm?

Let me think about that.

Do you spend "hundreds of millions" on new filtration systems, or tell people to boil their drinking water a couple times a year?

Re: Don't drink the water - not just in Mexico anymore

Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:03 pm
by rubato
Scooter wrote:"...
rubato wrote:If the water supply really was as unsafe as the OP suggests there would be an epidemic.

There isn't.

Find a real problem to address.
Does a reported rate of disease four times higher for crypto and over five time higher for giardia, compared to Los Angeles, give you any cause for concern?
No, if the levels of both are very low overall the fact that one is 4x higher is not meaningful and might be due to completely different causes. In this case better public health surveillance was listed as a probable reason.

Scooter wrote:"...
It's interesting, in that same letter it says that the new UV system they are wanting to install will allow them to reach the target of reducing the levels of giardia and cryptosporidium by 99%. That sounds great, except the EPA standard for giardia is 99.9%. Was this an error in drafting the letter, or a Freudian slip? One would hope they wouldn't be planning to allow levels of organisms ten times the allowable standard....
Reducing something by "99%" vs "99.9%" is meaningless unless the starting amount is specified. And "ten times higher" is only of interest if it is of biological consequence.

You are hysterically overstating the importance of this. On a list of California public health issues this does not make it into the categories which deserve resources or attention.

Unlike this:
______________________
http://www.statehealthfacts.org/compare ... =107&cat=2

California is above the average rate for syphilis infection in the US.

______________________



yrs,
rubato