Part of the solution for OWS

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rubato
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Part of the solution for OWS

Post by rubato »

Gradually reduce or eliminate the mortgage interest exemption. The data shows that it primarily advantages high-income people and in the end it just distorts real estate markets. If someone has $3,000/mo (pre-tax) to spend on a mortgage and it is all paid with post-tax dollars and they are in the 25% bracket then they will find a house they can buy for $2250/mo, that is how much they have to spend. With the mortgage interest exemption (for simplicity I will call it all interest, in fact it would be about 84% interest at the beginning of the mortgage*) they would shop for a house which cost $3,000/mo. All of the difference just inflates the cost of housing.

Now if you do the same calculation for an -expensive- house you will see that the subsidy going to the highest-income households is even greater.


http://economistsview.typepad.com/econo ... tters.html


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yrs,
rubato

*I just did the calculation and you would pay $2520 pre-tax dollars and $360 post tax dollars for a total of $2,880 out of $3,000 pre-tax income. The federal government is subsidizing the difference of $630/mo in taxes which someone else will have to pay to balance the budget.

** I did mention gradually reduce or eliminate. Look up. For the sake of fairness I would reduce it to the level which can benefit someone of a median household income; that is the size mortgage which someone making $50,000 can afford.

quaddriver
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Re: Part of the solution for OWS

Post by quaddriver »

Gradually reduce or eliminate the mortgage interest exemption.
already in the works since 2006. I think I brought that to light in the 08/09 time frame IIRC?

dgs49
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Re: Part of the solution for OWS

Post by dgs49 »

Unfortunately, this is an initiative that would be easy to demagogue.

"How could you possibly consider an initiative at this time that will be yet another blow to the housing construction industry?"

Also, it is one of exactly two (2) significant deductions that normal heterosexual Americans can still take (the other one being state and local income taxes). (I will not presume to opine about the deduction for charitable donations). The group it would hit hardest is the "true" middle class - the typical two-earner family that is suffering with a hefty mortgage payment.

rubato's indexing suggestion is simply another way of saying, "Let's increase taxes on The Rich."

Yet another reason why a "flat tax" or some such innovation is way overdue.

Liberty1
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Re: Part of the solution for OWS

Post by Liberty1 »

So apparently rube thinks OWS is all about the desire to raise taxes, half of the lefts universal solution.
I don't give a damn for a man that can only spell a word one way. Mark Twain

Grim Reaper
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Re: Part of the solution for OWS

Post by Grim Reaper »

Apparently liberty1 believes that any possible solution that gets raised first is the only thing the movement wants to have happen.

rubato
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Re: Part of the solution for OWS

Post by rubato »

I am saying that you can leave the tax rates the same (not raise them) and have the highest earners actually pay the taxes they already owe.

In our case, you are subsidizing our housing to the tune of over $7,350.00 per year cut from our federal taxes. Hey thanks! I think you're stupid.



yrs,
rubato

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Gob
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Re: Part of the solution for OWS

Post by Gob »

Thirty large and profitable US corporations paid no income taxes in 2008 through 2010, as Congress faces rising demands for tax reform, but seems unable or unwilling to act, a study shows.

Pepco Holdings, a Washington, power company, had the lowest effective tax rate, at negative 57.6 per cent, among the 280 Fortune 500 companies studied.

The statutory US corporate income tax rate is 35 per cent, one of the highest in the world, but over the 2008-2010 period, very few of the companies studied paid it, said the report.

The average effective tax rate for the companies over the period was 18.5 per cent, said Citizens for Tax Justice and the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy, both think tanks.

Their report also listed General Electric, Paccar, PG&E, Computer Sciences and NiSource as among the 30 that paid no taxes. All 280 corporations examined were profitable over the period.

Corporations will say rightly that the loopholes that let them slash their taxes were perfectly legal, the report said.

"But that does not mean that low-tax corporations bear no responsibility ... The laws were not enacted in a vacuum; they were adopted in response to relentless corporate lobbying, threats and campaign support," the report said.

As Congress and the Obama administration struggle with a sluggish economy and high deficits, corporations are pressing Capitol Hill for more tax breaks, including one that would let them bring home overseas profits at a reduced tax rate.

The congressional "super committee" tasked with finding at least $US1.2 trillion ($1.15 trillion) in additional budget savings by November 23 is so far deadlocked across a familiar divide - Republicans refusing any tax hikes, Democrats defending social programs.

On Tuesday, a panel of budget experts warned super committee members that they would fail the country if they do not meet their goal. Financial markets have been waiting for many months for signs that Washington can get its financial house in order, but few have been forthcoming.

The report referred back to the 1986 tax reform pushed through by President Ronald Reagan, a Republican, who approved the largest corporate tax increase in US history, largely by ending tax breaks, while cutting individual tax rates.


"Reagan solved the problem by sweeping away corporate tax loopholes," said the report, which was co-authored by Citizens for Tax Justice chief Robert McIntyre. His research 25 years ago played a key role in convincing Reagan reform was needed.

The industrial machinery business enjoyed the lowest effective tax rate during the study period, while the highest rate was paid by healthcare companies, the report said.

What are the tax breaks that corporations enjoy? One big one is accelerated depreciation that lets them write off equipment faster than it actually wears out. Deductions on executive stock options help. So do tax breaks for research and development and for making products in the United States instead of overseas. Offshore tax shelters play a role, too.

The average effective corporate tax rate, as calculated by McIntyre's group, was about 14 per cent before the Reagan reforms; afterward it shot up to 26.5 per cent in 1988.

As companies found their way around the reforms, the effective rate fell back to about 17 per cent by 2002-2003.

Unlike in Reagan's time, taming corporate tax breaks alone will not solve today's deficit problem.
Such breaks cost the government about $US102 billion in lost revenues in 2011, a year when the federal deficit was an estimated $US1.3 trillion.

Corporate loopholes are dwarfed by tax breaks that benefit individuals, such as the mortgage interest tax deduction - a middle class sacred cow - on its own worth $US104 billion.

Still, said the report, "If we are going to get our nation's fiscal house in order, increasing corporate income taxes should play an important role."

Reuters

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/business/world-bu ... z1cgNefnJF


“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

quaddriver
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Re: Part of the solution for OWS

Post by quaddriver »

lets see, they (a corporation is not a human) took advantage of tax breaks passed to keep employment up, and therefore paid no tax due to the losses, but kept people employed so by raising the taxes MORE they would respond how?

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Gob
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Re: Part of the solution for OWS

Post by Gob »

Deciphering that badly punctuated diatribe, I think Quaddy is intimating that these massive corporations by avoiding tax were able to keep people in work.

Lets' take one example of a kind benevolent corporation named, General Electric;
GE reported third-quarter earnings attributable to common shareholders of $2.34 billion, or 22 cents per share, compared with $1.98 billion, or 18 cents per share, a year earlier.
But the US tax office got nowt! But still, we do have Timothy F. Geithner Secretary of the Treasury's right hand man at the treasury, Quaddy, to let us know that this legal tax avoidance is all about job preservation.

Just how fucking stupid are you Quaddy?

Ps. I have a few GE shares, thanks for your tax dollars my American chums :ok
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

quaddriver
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Re: Part of the solution for OWS

Post by quaddriver »

apparently not fucking stupid at all. just how many people do GE employ? GE, yanno, the one that brings good things to life and while of course a large importer, is one of the LAST manufacturers in the US....

it would help, that instead of dumbass ad hominem, how about at least learning the TEEEEEEENIEST bit about how economics works.

Corporations, should pay ZERO taxes. any profit the corporations make is paid out in stock dividends which are taxed. you would have learned that, had you bothered. any expenses the corporations pay out, are taxble to someone as income. you could have bothered to learn that as well.

you might have also learned that labor is often 70% of the cost of any product. but you didnt.

so you posted on this why? forgive, Im just trying to see the value (add) in your words.

(all in all a damn shame, they teach US citizens this stuff by the end of HS. which is prolly why the bulk of the corporate money is......here. hey mebbe we can send Cuban over to OZ to buy it and turn it into a mosquito farm)

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dales
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Re: Part of the solution for OWS

Post by dales »

More on General Electric...

http://usaonly.us/WPBlog11/?p=508
GE “We Bring Outsourcing to Life”

Posted on August 15, 2011 by admin


GE….We Bring Good Things to Life, was the tag line from years gone by. Today the GE may stand for Global Enterprises or for a group of people in Wisconsin, Goodbye Employment.

It was announced a few days ago that the 100 + year old X-Ray division will be transferred to , where else, Shanghai , China. What makes this a real problem is the fact that the president of GE , JEFFERY IMMELT, is one of the “Job Czars” and adviser to the White House for , ready, “Jobs Creation”.

I can see where Mr Immelt may have realized some confusion in the fact that the title doesn’t say specifically “AMERICAN Jobs Creation“. So, I guess, when you run a company that pays no taxes with an $14.3 billion windfall, (see Blog entry “Mis-Fortune 500″) in order to keep his job, more pieces of the GE Empire must relocate to Imperial China. Already there are more outsourced jobs for GE than there are mainland employees with 25% of all GE products to be manufactured in China in the next 5 years.
<snip>
Keep bowing to the corporate masters, quad.

(of course, since you work for the gubmint, your job is secure and those poor bustards who find themselves out of work, it's their own damm fault.) :ok

Your collective inability to acknowledge this obvious truth makes you all look like fools.


yrs,
rubato

rubato
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Re: Part of the solution for OWS

Post by rubato »

A few years ago US international corporations got BushCo to let them re-patriate profits from overseas with a very low tax rate. The argument was that it would stimulate the economy and create jobs.

It didn't.

It just added to the deficit and most large companies used the money to pay investors dividends and buy back their stock; 'pumping' the stock price w/o adding to growth.

Only stupid people think that a recession characterized by a lack of demand can be cured by adding investment capital. When there is already an excess of supply no one will build factories or hire people.

yrs,
rubato

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Gob
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Re: Part of the solution for OWS

Post by Gob »

Quaddy again comes up with an ill considered, badly punctuated, poorly capitalised rant.
quaddriver wrote: apparently not fucking stupid at all. just how many people do GE employ? GE, yanno, the one that brings good things to life and while of course a large importer, is one of the LAST manufacturers in the US....

it would help, that instead of dumbass ad hominem, how about at least learning the TEEEEEEENIEST bit about how economics works.
I know far more than you by the looks of things. (It's "shift" + "letter" for a capital.)

quaddriver wrote:Corporations, should pay ZERO taxes. any profit the corporations make is paid out in stock dividends which are taxed. you would have learned that, had you bothered. any expenses the corporations pay out, are taxble to someone as income. you could have bothered to learn that as well.
"Should" in this context is meaningless. In all first world countries corporations are part of the general taxation scheme. It is therefore irrelevant what other taxes are imposed on income, earned or unearned.

quaddriver wrote:you might have also learned that labor is often 70% of the cost of any product. but you didnt.
Quaddy makes up stuff, including other people's knowledge, as he has no argument.

quaddriver wrote:so you posted on this why? forgive, Im just trying to see the value (add) in your words.
Try reading the OP again. (BTW it's "I'm" not "Im".)

quaddriver wrote:(all in all a damn shame, they teach US citizens this stuff by the end of HS. which is prolly why the bulk of the corporate money is......here. hey mebbe we can send Cuban over to OZ to buy it and turn it into a mosquito farm)
Can anyone translate this into "sober English" for me please?
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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Joe Guy
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Re: Part of the solution for OWS

Post by Joe Guy »

This is great!!

quad is now presenting himself as an expert on economics.

It scores a very strong '6' rating on the quad humor index scale.

quaddriver
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Re: Part of the solution for OWS

Post by quaddriver »

rubato wrote:A few years ago US international corporations got BushCo to let them re-patriate profits from overseas with a very low tax rate. The argument was that it would stimulate the economy and create jobs.

It didn't.

It just added to the deficit and most large companies used the money to pay investors dividends and buy back their stock; 'pumping' the stock price w/o adding to growth.

Only stupid people think that a recession characterized by a lack of demand can be cured by adding investment capital. When there is already an excess of supply no one will build factories or hire people.

yrs,
rubato
this is from the same person that wants 'investment capital' from the govt? oh wait...

quaddriver
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Re: Part of the solution for OWS

Post by quaddriver »

Gob wrote:Quaddy again comes up with an ill considered and badly punctuated and capitalised rant.
quaddriver wrote: apparently not fucking stupid at all. just how many people do GE employ? GE, yanno, the one that brings good things to life and while of course a large importer, is one of the LAST manufacturers in the US....

it would help, that instead of dumbass ad hominem, how about at least learning the TEEEEEEENIEST bit about how economics works.
I know far more than you by the looks of things. (It's "shift" + "letter" for a capital.)

quaddriver wrote:Corporations, should pay ZERO taxes. any profit the corporations make is paid out in stock dividends which are taxed. you would have learned that, had you bothered. any expenses the corporations pay out, are taxble to someone as income. you could have bothered to learn that as well.
"Should" in this context is meaningless. In all first world countries corporations are part of the general taxation scheme. It is therefore irrelevant what other taxes are imposed on income, earned or unearned.

quaddriver wrote:you might have also learned that labor is often 70% of the cost of any product. but you didnt.
Quaddy makes up stuff, including other people's knowledge, as he has no argument.

quaddriver wrote:so you posted on this why? forgive, Im just trying to see the value (add) in your words.
Try reading the OP again. (BTW it's "I'm" not "Im".)

quaddriver wrote:(all in all a damn shame, they teach US citizens this stuff by the end of HS. which is prolly why the bulk of the corporate money is......here. hey mebbe we can send Cuban over to OZ to buy it and turn it into a mosquito farm)
Can anyone translate this into "sober English" for me please?
oh looky, here we have yet ANOTHER thread Gob posts in where he has no clue on the subject matter.

Ok, we'll bite...if the cost of labor for a manufactured product is not 70% of the cost, what is it then? I'll let YOU make up a number. (and then, once you do make up your number, perhaps 200 words on why companies are moving manufacturing to mexico, then indonesia, then china? was it the food?)

Im waiting for you to produce *1* non-googleized or wiki statement (as opposed to your usual *zero* so far) demonstrating you have any idea how to spell economics, let alone its workings. you did claim to own some GE stock and were quite pleased. Care to tell us under what mechanism it pleases you? <--its ok, I'm only making fun of you because the reality is you have no goddamn idea how 'stock' works and it shows in your life, those few (3) shares of GE stock about the only thing you own of worth, due soley to your lack of understanding of.....pretty much everything as history shows.

Ps: 'cuban' is 'murrican for Mark Cuban, a person who grew up only a few miles from DGS and myself. Armed with far less education than either of us, (but more than you, he at least does have something of a degree) he became a multi billionaire by using....what they teach us in high school. sucks to be you, disadvantaged in every way eh?

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Gob
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Re: Part of the solution for OWS

Post by Gob »

quaddriver wrote: oh looky, here we have yet ANOTHER thread Gob posts in where he has no clue on the subject matter.

Ok, we'll bite...if the cost of labor for a manufactured product is not 70% of the cost, what is it then? I'll let YOU make up a number. (and then, once you do make up your number, perhaps 200 words on why companies are moving manufacturing to mexico, then indonesia, then china? was it the food?)
When you prove that every GE product has a 70% labour charge, then I'll take you seriously, until then I'll treat you like the blowhard idiot you've become.
quaddriver wrote: Im waiting for you to produce *1* non-googleized or wiki statement (as opposed to your usual *zero* so far) demonstrating you have any idea how to spell economics, let alone its workings. you did claim to own some GE stock and were quite pleased. Care to tell us under what mechanism it pleases you? <--its ok, I'm only making fun of you because the reality is you have no goddamn idea how 'stock' works and it shows in your life, those few (3) shares of GE stock about the only thing you own of worth, due soley to your lack of understanding of.....pretty much everything as history shows.
Gibberish, and not only gibberish, but full of Quaddy's imagined things he knows about other people and their lives. (BTW it's still spelled "I'm", sober up before replying.)
quaddriver wrote:Ps: 'cuban' is 'murrican for Mark Cuban, a person who grew up only a few miles from DGS and myself. Armed with far less education than either of us, (but more than you, he at least does have something of a degree) he became a multi billionaire by using....what they teach us in high school. sucks to be you, disadvantaged in every way eh?
I have two degrees Quaddy, as anyone here will tell you, as that lie (originally posted by Editec) has been laid to rest a long time ago. Oh, and I know how to capitalise a sentence too.

Now why not fuck off back to the drunk tank, before you embarrass yourself further?
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

quaddriver
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Re: Part of the solution for OWS

Post by quaddriver »

Gob wrote:I have two degrees?
ehhhhh, wrong.

you have none. two incomplete courses of study do not degrees make.

you have a life full of evaluations with words like 'dull' and phrases like 'dim-witted' peppered thru-out.

and the cool, or not cool thing is, it shows. In everything you do. say. write. experience.

of all of the supposed 'enigmas' here, you are the least enigmatic. you live, breathe, experience, thru others. Your entire lifetime is composed soley of the make believe reality you have *here*. No secret.

But, returning to the thread you have derailed with yet another Gob-style diatribe of inane-ness, in your own words please, tell us how your 'few' (3) stock certificates work.

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Joe Guy
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Re: Part of the solution for OWS

Post by Joe Guy »

quaddriver wrote: Ok, we'll bite...
Whattaya mean "we" quad?

You and Timmy hanging out after hours and having serious discussions about the economy again?

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Joe Guy
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Re: Part of the solution for OWS

Post by Joe Guy »

quaddriver wrote: of all of the supposed 'enigmas' here, you are the least enigmatic. you live, breathe, experience, thru others. Your entire lifetime is composed soley of the make believe reality you have *here*.
What a knee-slapper!!

After someone uses quad's own lying words to expose him, he responds by making up something about the person who embarrassed him - and apparently expects - or is actually dumb enough to believe that others will accept even more of his lies.

Thanks again, quad!

You're a laugh a minute!!

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