Plan B Forum

Posted: **Tue May 22, 2012 7:36 pm**

Assume for a moment that a back-story could be generated - say, Joe comes out and says he has been afflicted with a rare brain-eating disorder and has decided to step down - SHOULD Barry dump Joe in favor of HRC?

The benefits are considerable. HRC is more intelligent and competent, less prone to gaffes, has a good background, and so forth. Further, should Barry win in 2012, the Dems would be in a wonderful position to take the WH in 2016, provided HRC still wants it.

On the other hand, her history carries the perverse characteristic that, the more publicly visible she is, the worse her approval ratings are. It is almost humorously and consistently true, running from her days as First Lady and through the present. The less the public sees of her, the better her approval ratings have been.

I doubt that anyone outside Delaware would think ill of Barry if he "accepted the resignation" of Joe Biden. It is no secret that he has become something of a joke (to the extent that he was not one all along).

What do you think?

Should he or shouldn't he?

Posted: **Tue May 22, 2012 7:39 pm**

And what right-wing blog were you reading that invented this in order to turn it into a story?

Posted: **Tue May 22, 2012 8:09 pm**

At this point Joe is better liked by the populist-left base of party, (he gave an extraordinarily demagogic class war fare speech last week...it's obvious what role the campaign has carved out for him..) so dumping him for HRC wouldn't really make much sense...

the more publicly visible she is, the worse her approval ratings are. It is almost humorously and consistently true, running from her days as First Lady and through the present.

I think her reputiation with the public at large has improved considerably since she became Secretary of State. (My opinion of her has certainly improved....and I have to admit to being surprised; I didn't expect that to happen)

She has developed a reputation for being one of the thoughtful "adults" and less naive players in the Administration.

I've said before that I don't have a whole lot to criticize her for as SOS. I think it's a fair bet that the foreign policy of this Administration would be far more tentative, naive and irresponsible were she not serving in that role.

Posted: **Tue May 22, 2012 8:39 pm**

I can't see that Hillary would help him all that much, and I doubt being his VP (assuming the ticket was elected) would help her in 2016; she'd be better to keep her distance and then see what happens in the next 4 years. I doubt he'll make a change.

Posted: **Tue May 22, 2012 8:45 pm**

why would Obama give up the best Bullet shield in history? No one wants that guy as CIC.

Posted: **Tue May 22, 2012 11:40 pm**

There is not a single word, not one little hint, that this is anything HRC is interested in. Nor should she be. She should stay well enough away, enjoy her well-deserved positive reputation, and see how the election shakes out. I don't know if she's going to run in 2016 or not. I half-believe her when she says she is tired and wants to retire. But lets see what happens when she is no longer Secretary of State, and can start fundraising again.

Posted: **Wed May 23, 2012 12:37 am**

Hilary has said that her current job will be her last in government.

This is a Non-story whipped up by fools to amuse themselves.

yrs,
rubato

Posted: **Wed May 23, 2012 2:11 am**

There is not a single word, not one little hint, that this is anything HRC is interested in.

Oh, I don't think there's the slightest bit of doubt that she would seek the Presidency in a heartbeat, given the opportunity...

She would make Richard Nixon look lacking in ambition, given the chance...

But she's not going to get that chance...

She's played a positive role in American history, and she ought to feel good about that...

Posted: **Wed May 23, 2012 2:19 am**

Yes, but I was referring to the OP - taking Biden's job, for this election. When discussing her long-term ambitions I said something wholly different.

And actually, ambitions change. People get tired. Her time may still come, or she may really retire. I'd bet not even she knows.

Posted: **Wed May 23, 2012 3:47 am**

No, she's not going to take Joe Biden's job..

That's not going to happen...She really has a more important role, and she has served it well...

I have to say that I am surprisingly impressed at how well this has worked out...

Posted: **Wed May 23, 2012 6:17 pm**

Just to make a comment on Biden's speech last week...

One of the things that he said that really grated on me:

"They say we don't dream...But MY parents DREAMED EVERY BIT AS MUCH AS ANY RICH GUY'S PARENTS!"

Joe, could you please point out, anywhere anytime, ever...

Where "they" (presumably these nasty "rich") said that people who aren't rich don't dream....

Just one example to back up your bug eyed screaming assertion will suffice...

I saw a surrogate for Team Obama saying that they like having Joe out there telling his personal story...

The problem of course is that sometimes Joe gets so wrapped up in his personal narrative, that he , well, starts telling somebody elses personal narrative...:

NEIL KINNOCK at Welsh Labour Party conference May 1987:

"Why am I the first Kinnock in a thousand generations to be able to get to university? Was it because our predecessors were thick? Does anybody really think that they didn't get what we had because they didn't have the talent or the strength or the endurance or the commitment? Of course not. It was because there was no platform upon which they could stand"

JOE BIDEN IN Sept 1987 during his first presidential campaign:

"Why is it that Joe Biden is the first in his family ever to go a university? Why is it that my wife... is the first in her family to ever go to college? Is it because our fathers and mothers were not bright? ...Is it because they didn't work hard? My ancestors who worked in the coal mines of northeast Pennsylvania and would come after 12 hours and play football for four hours? It's because they didn't have a platform on which to stand."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... peech.html

This was so flagrant and embarrassing, that it forced him to pull out of the '88 Presidential race when it became public...

To this day, he has never explained why he did that....

Posted: **Wed May 23, 2012 6:39 pm**

And then there is the whole truth:

Though Biden had cited Kinnock as the source for the formulation many times before, he made no reference to the original source at the August 23 Democratic debate at the Iowa State Fair being reported on[21] or in another appearance.[22] While political speeches often appropriated ideas and language from each other, Biden's use came under more scrutiny because he somewhat distorted his own family's background in order to match Kinnock's.[15][22]

Following the Kinnock attention, reports came from the San Jose Mercury News of Biden reusing without credit pieces of speeches from Hubert H. Humphrey and Robert F. Kennedy.[23] In the Kennedy case – which got the greater attention, since there was film footage of both versions that television news programs could play side-by-side – Pat Caddell stated that the reuse without credit was his own fault, and that he had never informed Biden of the source of the material.[23]

After Biden withdrew from the race, it was learned that he had indeed correctly credited Kinnock on other occasions. But in the Iowa speech that was recorded and distributed to reporters (with a parallel video of Kinnock) by aides to Michael Dukakis, the eventual nominee, he failed to do so. Dukakis, who disowned any knowledge of the Kinnock video, fired John Sasso, his campaign manager and long-time Chief of Staff, but Biden's campaign could not recover.[15][24][25]

The concepts of being from a working class family and being the first to ever attend university and enter white collar professions are so universal that it hardly seems fair to accuse anyone of plagiarism for telling his own such story. But in truth, Biden attributed to Kinnock the credit for that universal concept, most recently voiced by him.

Just more dirty politics.

Posted: **Wed May 23, 2012 6:55 pm**

So your argument would be that he abruptly withdrew from the '88 race immediately after this became public...

...for the hell of it?...

Due to sheer coincidence?....

ETA:

Option 3:

That he was such a glass jawed weakling and political novice that he immediately withdrew from the race the first time he had a "dirty trick" thrown at him? (bearing in mind of course, that by 1988, Biden had been in the Senate for 16 years...)

Posted: **Wed May 23, 2012 7:47 pm**

bigskygal wrote:
Though Biden had cited Kinnock as the source for the formulation many times before,

Who? The Welsh windbag?

Posted: **Wed May 23, 2012 8:00 pm**

I remember Neil Kinnock....

He was one of a parade of "bums of the week" (like the utterly hopeless Michael Foote) that Lady Thacher tap danced all over in general elections...

If I recall correctly...

Posted: **Wed May 23, 2012 8:25 pm**

The truth is that he didn't plagiarize. No real argument to be made about it.

Posted: **Wed May 23, 2012 8:29 pm**

And by the by; it's a well established tactic of well-heeled conservatives to point to working class people and say they lack ambition/motivation or vision to better themselves. Biden's speech attacks that very insulting and oft utilized argument in defense of the rich - many of whom, like Romney's boys, got their money by accident of birth and nothing more.

Posted: **Wed May 23, 2012 8:55 pm**

t took alot of ambition and motivation to fertilize that egg. the competition is fierce.

Posted: **Wed May 23, 2012 8:58 pm**

I mean why else you think they're so anti abortion all that work and then to have the govt allow it to be taken all away.

Posted: **Wed May 23, 2012 9:00 pm**

The truth is that he didn't plagiarize. No real argument to be made about it.

So I guess you're going with the "sheer coincidence" theory...

Or perhaps the "the guy who had been a US Senator for 16 years had a 'glass jaw'" theory...

If you don't believe that Joe Biden dropped out of the '88 Presidential race because of the legitimacy of that Kinnock story....

Do you have another theory as to why, after spending nearly two years pursuing the Democratic Presidential nomination, Biden suddenly dropped out, (immediately after this story broke) ?

If so, I would be delighted to hear it.

ETA:

Or is this going to fall into the "I can't be bothered to answer that kind of question" category?

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