General Meade, I'd Really Like Your Take On This...

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Lord Jim
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General Meade, I'd Really Like Your Take On This...

Post by Lord Jim »

Mine "bloodbath" shocks post-apartheid S.Africa

MARIKANA, South Africa (Reuters) - The police killing of 34 striking platinum miners in the bloodiest security operation since the end of white rule cut to the quick of South Africa's psyche on Friday, with searching questions asked of its post-apartheid soul.

Newspaper headlines screamed "Bloodbath", "Killing Field" and "Mine Slaughter", with graphic photographs of heavily armed white and black police officers walking casually past the bloodied corpses of black men lying crumpled in the dust.

The images, along with Reuters TV footage of officers opening up with automatic weapons on a small group of men in blankets and t-shirts at Lonmin's Marikana platinum plant, rekindled uncomfortable memories of South Africa's racist past.

Police chief Riah Phiyega confirmed 34 dead and 78 injured in Thursday's shootings after officers moved against 3,000 striking drill operators armed with machetes and sticks at the mine, 100 km (60 miles) northwest of Johannesburg.

A sombre-looking President Jacob Zuma, who cut short a trip to Mozambique for a regional summit because of the violence, travelled to Marikana and announced he had ordered an official inquiry into what he called the "shocking" events.

"This is unacceptable in our country which is a country where everyone feels comfortable, a country with a democracy that everyone envies," he said in a statement read at a news conference. He did not take questions.

Phiyega, a former banking executive appointed to lead the police force only in June, said officers acted in self-defence against charging, armed assailants at Marikana.

"The police members had to employ force to protect themselves," she said, noting that two policemen had been hacked to death by a mob at the mine on Tuesday.

However, the South African Institute of Race Relations likened the incident to the 1960 Sharpeville township massacre near Johannesburg, when apartheid police opened fire on a crowd of black protesters, killing more than 50.

"Obviously the issues that have led to this are not the same as the past, but the response and the outcome is very similar," research manager Lucy Holborn told Reuters.

In a front-page editorial, the Sowetan newspaper questioned what had changed since 1994, when Nelson Mandela overturned three centuries of white domination to become South Africa's first black president.

"It has happened in this country before where the apartheid regime treated black people like objects," the paper, named after South Africa's biggest black township, said. "It is continuing in a different guise now."

Zuma, who faces an internal leadership election in his ruling African National Congress (ANC) in December, called on South Africa to mourn together. "It is a moment to start healing and rebuilding," he said at Marikana.

"We believe there is enough space in our democratic order for any dispute to be resolved through dialogue without any breaches of the law or violence," an earlier statement from him said.

Despite promises of a better life for all South Africa's 50 million people, the ANC has struggled to provide basic services to millions in poor black townships.

Efforts to redress the economic inequalities of apartheid have had mixed results, and the mining sector comes in for particular criticism from radical ANC factions as a bastion of "white monopoly capital".

In Washington, the White House said it was saddened by the loss of life. "We encourage all parties to work together to resolve the situation peacefully," spokesman Josh Earnest said.

POLICE PRESENCE

Hundreds of police patrolled the dusty plains around the Marikana mine, which was forced to shut down this week because of a rumbling union turf war that has hit the platinum sector this year.

Crime scene investigators combed the site of the shooting, which was cordoned off with yellow tape, collecting spent cartridges and the slain miners' bloodstained traditional weapons - machetes and spears.

Six firearms were recovered, including a service revolver from one of the police officers killed earlier in the week.

Before Thursday, 10 people had died in nearly a week of conflict between rival unions at what is Lonmin's flagship plant. The London-headquartered company has been forced to shut down all its South African platinum operations, which account for 12 percent of global output.
http://news.yahoo.com/mine-bloodbath-sh ... 27381.html

(I know Lib already posted about this but again he used that format that makes it impossible for some of us here to read what has been written)

What I find puzzling is how little reporting there seems to be about the actual incident itself, and how it unfolded....

In this country if something like this happens, within hours you get tons of interviews from survivors and witnesses talking about what happened. You also get a much more complete official version, and cops talking off the record. All the coverage I've seen on this, reports the fact of the deaths, and a lot of post incident reaction, but virtually nothing, (this article is a good example) about what triggered this and how it unfolded.
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liberty
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Re: General Meade, I'd Really Like Your Take On This...

Post by liberty »

A lot of the background is still unclear to me, but what I saw looked like the police acted in self-defense. It appeared that they were being charged by a mob armed with something. Being charged by an unarmed mob could justify deadly action. The test is to place yourself on both sides of the situation and see how you would react.

I suspect the police are being used as scapegoats to justify the nationalization of the mines. The government needs no justification to nationalize mines especially if the y pay off the owners, but considering Africa’s political history I believe it would be a mistake. Very little money will make it get to common man’s pocket, most if not all will be stolen by the elites. I have always said only a fool would invest money in Africa.
Soon, I’ll post my farewell message. The end is starting to get close. There are many misconceptions about me, and before I go, to live with my ancestors on the steppes, I want to set the record straight.

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Re: General Meade, I'd Really Like Your Take On This...

Post by Rick »

A lot of the background is still unclear to me, but what I saw looked like the police acted in self-defense.
Or reprisal...
Sometimes it seems as though one has to cross the line just to figger out where it is

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Re: General Meade, I'd Really Like Your Take On This...

Post by rubato »

Or mindful of the recent past. "two officers hacked to death". I'd be thinking about it.

In any case I've seen nothing about nationalizing the mine. Is that just liberty's fevered one-dimensional imagination or is there some evidence of this?

yrs,
rubato

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Re: General Meade, I'd Really Like Your Take On This...

Post by Rick »

Or mindful of the recent past. "two officers hacked to death".
Yeah, I just posted that...
Sometimes it seems as though one has to cross the line just to figger out where it is

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Re: General Meade, I'd Really Like Your Take On This...

Post by liberty »

rubato wrote:In any case I've seen nothing about nationalizing the mine. Is that just liberty's fevered one-dimensional imagination or is there some evidence of this?

yrs,
rubato
That is correct and that is another one correct, I really have nothing to go on but my understanding of human nature. You really don’t think that the idea is not occupying the minds of the ANC? The only thing that is impeding them is the possible loss of foreign investment. I see little difference between South Africa and Zimbabwe.
Soon, I’ll post my farewell message. The end is starting to get close. There are many misconceptions about me, and before I go, to live with my ancestors on the steppes, I want to set the record straight.

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Re: General Meade, I'd Really Like Your Take On This...

Post by rubato »

liberty wrote:
rubato wrote:In any case I've seen nothing about nationalizing the mine. Is that just liberty's fevered one-dimensional imagination or is there some evidence of this?

yrs,
rubato
That is correct and that is another one correct, I really have nothing to go on but my understanding of human nature. You really don’t think that the idea is not occupying the minds of the ANC? The only thing that is impeding them is the possible loss of foreign investment. I see little difference between South Africa and Zimbabwe.
So you are saying that in their place you would be nationalizing the mine? Because you are the only person about whose 'nature' you have any knowledge.

yrs,
rubato

liberty
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Re: General Meade, I'd Really Like Your Take On This...

Post by liberty »

rubato wrote:
liberty wrote:
rubato wrote:In any case I've seen nothing about nationalizing the mine. Is that just liberty's fevered one-dimensional imagination or is there some evidence of this?

yrs,
rubato
That is correct and that is another one correct, I really have nothing to go on but my understanding of human nature. You really don’t think that the idea is not occupying the minds of the ANC? The only thing that is impeding them is the possible loss of foreign investment. I see little difference between South Africa and Zimbabwe.
So you are saying that in their place you would be nationalizing the mine? Because you are the only person about whose 'nature' you have any knowledge.

yrs,
rubato
I would do it only if it was in the best interest of the country and then I would pay the owners. But what I said was clear enough.
Soon, I’ll post my farewell message. The end is starting to get close. There are many misconceptions about me, and before I go, to live with my ancestors on the steppes, I want to set the record straight.

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Re: General Meade, I'd Really Like Your Take On This...

Post by Lord Jim »

I see little difference between South Africa and Zimbabwe.
Well Gen'l Meade can certainly speak more authoritatively to this than I can, but from what I've read on the situion there, that seems somewhat extreme....

SA is certainly no garden spot, and the version of representative democracy as practiced there isn't one I'd care to live under....

Also The ANC is rife with corruption and incompetence (and the country certainly hasn't been helped by the fact that a couple of it's leaders have embraced kook theories...like the idea that there's no connection between HIV and AIDS...)

Crime is a huge problem...(when you have the option to buy cars with built in flame throwers, that's never a good sign...)

But all of that having been said, South Africa seems to me to be nowhere where near the completely dysfunctional lawless hell hole created next door by the madman/war criminal Robert Mugabe....

It would be like if back in the 70's you had compared some run-of-the-mill corrupt authoritarian kleptocracy on the African continent to Idi Amin's Uganda.....

It seems to me that what the South African people need most now is for its democracy to mature to the point that it moves beyond this semi-one party state model. (much like the kind of systems that Mexico and Taiwan and South Korea had for many years.)

What a country needs for that to happen is a growing, better educated middle class. (That's what ultimately brought about change in the three other countries I mentioned)

South Africa is a country with much promise; rich in natural resources, natural beauty and agricultural capability. There's no reason that it could not become a thriving state.
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Re: General Meade, I'd Really Like Your Take On This...

Post by liberty »

Some SAfrican miners felt invincible to bullets
By MICHELLE FAUL and NQOBILE NTSHANGASE | Associated Press – 11 hrs ago....
Share0EmailPrint.......Associated Press/Themba Hadebe - A mine worker Thabo Leribe sits as they wait for a report back from their union at the Lonmin mine near Rustenburg, South Africa, Tuesday, Aug. 21, 2012. Mine workers trickled …more in Tuesday at the Lonmin platinum mine where 44-people have died in a wildcat strike, as South Africa urged the company to suspend an ultimatum to return to work. (AP Photo/Themba Hadebe) less


....MARIKANA, South Africa (AP) — At the dusty site of the last week's police shootings in South Africa that killed 34 miners and wounded 78, hundreds of mourners walked barefoot Tuesday as church leaders blessed the ground, with a Methodist bishop drawing a large cross in the dirt.

"Church members have come to express solidarity in the wake of what really has been a shocking event," Bishop Gavin Taylor said. "It's almost indescribable that people could have been killed in this way."

As others sang hymns one woman, Alakhe Nombeu, sobbed. She said her brother was one of the strikers killed by police volleys of gunfire last Thursday and that she finally found the name of her missing husband among those arrested on Sunday, three days after the shootings.

Two men who survived the mass shooting by police say a traditional healer told the strikers that police bullets would not harm them if they used traditional medicine, a South African newspaper reported Tuesday as the mining company postponed an ultimatum for workers to return to work.

Firebrand politician Julius Malema and leaders of the striking miners went to a police station near the mine Tuesday to file a criminal case of murder against the police for the shootings.

"We strongly believe that it is within the laws and constitution to hold all people who kill other people accountable within the confines of the law," Malema's spokesman Floyd Shivambu told reporters.

Malema said he does not trust the results of a commission of inquiry being arranged by South African President Jacob Zuma because it would be "manipulated by the politicians."

Malema was expelled from Zuma's governing African National Congress in April and has used the killings outside the platinum mine against Zuma. He told reporters outside the police station that "President Zuma doesn't care about these people."

Minister in the Presidency Collins Chabane announced that officials by late Tuesday had identified 33 of the 34 bodies of shot miners, including one man from Lesotho, a mountain kingdom surrounded by South Africa. Chabane's spokesman Harold Maloka said it had taken days to check the mine's data base, the government data base and ensuring that families were able to identify the men.

"It becomes a long process because some family members were looking for their loved ones and they might not be among the dead at the morgue or the wounded in hospitals," he said.

No striking miners will be fired in the week that South Africa officially mourns the killings, the presidency said on Tuesday.

Managers of Lonmin PLC platinum mine had ordered strikers to report for duty by 7 a.m. Tuesday or get fired, even as some family members still were searching for missing loved ones, not knowing whether they were dead or alive among some 250 arrested protesters or in one of the hospitals.

An inter-ministerial committee led by Chabane convinced managers of Lonmin PLC platinum mine not to act on the dismissal ultimatum during a week of national mourning that began Monday, according to Maloka.

Two survivors of the shootings told the Daily Dispatch that many of the miners drank a brown muti, or traditional medicine, to strengthen them ahead of the confrontation with police.

"They were cut several times on their upper body and a black substance was smeared on the wounds," Nothi Zimanga said, according to the newspaper in East London, in the country's Eastern Cape where many miners come from. "They were then told when they confront the police they must not look back and must just charge forward. If you look back then the muti will not work."

Miner Bulelani Malawana said he was offered the muti for $125 but turned it down, as did Malawana.

Some 3,000 rock drill operators started the strike Aug. 10 demanding higher wages. The operators are among the least educated of mine workers, often illiterate and pride themselves of doing the most dangerous job in the mine.

Legislators held a special memorial service at the Parliament in Cape Town on Tuesday. It was opened by the African National Congress chief whip, Mathole Motshekga, who addressed an apparent growing tendency to resolve disputes with violence in South Africa.

"It must never be in our psychology as a people that to achieve our demands, we must engage in violence and kill," Motshekga said. "It surely must never be part of our being as a people that the maintenance of law and order should have to end in bloodshed."

The mine's executive vice president Mark Munroe told TalkRadio 702 FM early Tuesday that those who did not report for work will be punished, but not necessarily dismissed.

"It won't help if Lonmin goes out and dismisses a whole lot of people for not coming to work today," he said. "It will set us back significantly in terms of violence, in terms of building trust."

Sue Vey, a public relations specialist representing Lonmin, said about 33 percent of workers expected for the morning shift reported for work Tuesday, up only slightly on 30 percent who reported Monday in response to an earlier ultimatum. Another publicist for Lonmin, Gillian Findlay, said that only 19.5 percent of rock drill operators showed up Tuesday.

Lonmin said the mine had resumed operations on Monday.

Vey said workers were mainly involved in sweeping, making areas safe and having briefings. Industry experts say a workforce of at least 80 percent is needed to actually produce platinum.

The mine cannot operate without rock drill operators, who man the massive drills deep underground in the most dangerous job at the mine.

London-registered Lonmin, the world's third-largest platinum producer whose shares have taken a hard knock, already has said that the strike has caused the company to miss its production target for the year of 750,000 ounces
Soon, I’ll post my farewell message. The end is starting to get close. There are many misconceptions about me, and before I go, to live with my ancestors on the steppes, I want to set the record straight.

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Lord Jim
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Re: General Meade, I'd Really Like Your Take On This...

Post by Lord Jim »

I see Gen'l Meade has been posting this morning, so I thought I would bump this thread to see if I could get his attention ... 8-)

Since he has lived in South Africa for some time now, I think his perspective would be valuable on this.
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Re: General Meade, I'd Really Like Your Take On This...

Post by Grim Reaper »

The miners have now been charged with murder for participating in the riot when their colleagues who were shot by the police.

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Lord Jim
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Re: General Meade, I'd Really Like Your Take On This...

Post by Lord Jim »

Well, it's nice to see that at least one completely insane thing has been stopped:
S. Africa to withdraw murder charges against miners

JOHANNESBURG – South Africa's top prosecutor announced Sunday that she is withdrawing controversial murder charges against 270 miners for the killings of 34 striking co-workers shot dead by police.

The National Union of Metal Workers meanwhile demanded the suspension of the officers responsible for the shootings.

Sunday's announcement follows a barrage of criticism from political parties, trade unions, civil society and legal experts.

Even the justice minister had challenged the prosecutor's decision to charge the arrested miners under an apartheid-era law that opened President Jacob Zuma's government to accusations that it was acting like the former brutal white rulers.

Nomqcobo Jiba, the acting director of public prosecutions, did not say why she had reversed her decision to shift the blame from the police to the miners.

"The murder charge against the current 270 suspects … will be formally withdrawn," she told a news conference.

She said the miners would be released from jail with a warning,[ What, like "Just because we won't charge you murder when the police opened fire on an unarmed crowd you were standing in this time, doesn't mean we won't next time, so watch it." :shrug ]providing police could verify their home addresses.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/stor ... 57536206/1
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Re: General Meade, I'd Really Like Your Take On This...

Post by Joe Guy »

Apparently General Meade has no take on this subject.

Maybe he doesn't know what's happening. He probably has his headphones on & is listening to Lenny C.

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Re: General Meade, I'd Really Like Your Take On This...

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Ah dont' be silly - I have no headphones. Leonard Cohen's genius music, lyrics and voice are being emitted by the loudspeakers on this PC....

Sorry I didn't look far enough down the unread page to see this question and I started a new OP earlier today in ignorance (my usual condition).

Nationalisation of mines. No, the official ANC policy is that there should be none. It is the ANC Youth League's pet hobbyhorse, reinforced at every opportunity by Julius Malema who (now that the ANC has banned him from the ANCYL and stripped him of its presidency) has formed his own little group "Friends of the ANC Youth League" to continue fomenting trouble amongst the masses. There is a chance that the ANC will be forced to the left (and reconsider nationalisation) in response to pressure to change the current leadership.

However, what the government has learned (perhaps) is that para-statals run by the ANC cadres "deployed" to do so are even more vulnerable to worker demands than is private industry. ANC is finding out that you can't eternally give out oodles of cash to everyone who wants it but of course those who want it simply point to the promises made by the ANC.

The specific problem is more reflective of conflict between the COSATU recognized National Union of Mineworkers and the upstart Association of Mineworkers and Construction Union. NUM was losing its right to represent the workers as they switched to AMCU and went on a wildcat strike. The first violence was an intra-union clash that left 4 dead.

Lonmin avers that (a) most of the "strikers" are not employed by them and (b) the current wage levels being cited are far lower than what is actually paid out.

The entire affair is symptomatic of far larger concerns. The wholesale destruction of schools and the prevention of teachers and pupils from attending that has been going on for weeks in Kuruman in the Northern Cape and is now spreading elsewhere as a tactic to protest the lack of service delivery. No roads? No electrical service? Burn down a school. An interesting social equation given that most responsible thought is that no amount of capital redistribution and BEEE "points" will get South Africans into jobs - education is the key.

The white apartheid National government never had the problem of providing adequate services to the majority nor could they have solved the problems that the ANC must struggle with

Meade
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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Lord Jim
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Re: General Meade, I'd Really Like Your Take On This...

Post by Lord Jim »

Thanks for weighing in Gen'l. Interesting background info to provide context.
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Re: General Meade, I'd Really Like Your Take On This...

Post by liberty »

MajGenl.Meade wrote:Ah dont' be silly - I have no headphones. Leonard Cohen's genius music, lyrics and voice are being emitted by the loudspeakers on this PC....

Sorry I didn't look far enough down the unread page to see this question and I started a new OP earlier today in ignorance (my usual condition).

Nationalisation of mines. No, the official ANC policy is that there should be none. It is the ANC Youth League's pet hobbyhorse, reinforced at every opportunity by Julius Malema who (now that the ANC has banned him from the ANCYL and stripped him of its presidency) has formed his own little group "Friends of the ANC Youth League" to continue fomenting trouble amongst the masses. There is a chance that the ANC will be forced to the left (and reconsider nationalisation) in response to pressure to change the current leadership.

However, what the government has learned (perhaps) is that para-statals run by the ANC cadres "deployed" to do so are even more vulnerable to worker demands than is private industry. ANC is finding out that you can't eternally give out oodles of cash to everyone who wants it but of course those who want it simply point to the promises made by the ANC.

The specific problem is more reflective of conflict between the COSATU recognized National Union of Mineworkers and the upstart Association of Mineworkers and Construction Union. NUM was losing its right to represent the workers as they switched to AMCU and went on a wildcat strike. The first violence was an intra-union clash that left 4 dead.

Lonmin avers that (a) most of the "strikers" are not employed by them and (b) the current wage levels being cited are far lower than what is actually paid out.

The entire affair is symptomatic of far larger concerns. The wholesale destruction of schools and the prevention of teachers and pupils from attending that has been going on for weeks in Kuruman in the Northern Cape and is now spreading elsewhere as a tactic to protest the lack of service delivery. No roads? No electrical service? Burn down a school. An interesting social equation given that most responsible thought is that no amount of capital redistribution and BEEE "points" will get South Africans into jobs - education is the key.

The white apartheid National government never had the problem of providing adequate services to the majority nor could they have solved the problems that the ANC must struggle with

Meade
So, general you think that my pessimism for the future of South Africa is over stated? True South Africa is somewhat different but the recent history of Africa does not predict a true democratic future where the rights of the minority are respected.

My company has recently decided to invest in Africa; I think it is a mistake. I may donate to Africa, especially to a Christian mission, but would not invest in a dime.
Also the video I saw, only once, looked as if the police were being charge by an armed mob. Now don’t get me wrong I know that the police can be abusive overseas and here, but the right to self-defense is a universal right. So it is an important question: Did police have reason to feel threatened?
Soon, I’ll post my farewell message. The end is starting to get close. There are many misconceptions about me, and before I go, to live with my ancestors on the steppes, I want to set the record straight.

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