Plan B Forum

Some bastards turn out ok....

Of course.

I just felt like posting this to see the reactions.

I just wish people would marry before having children.

Groucho Marx - "Marriage is a wonderful institution...but who wants to live in an institution?"

Some of my best friends and relatives have children found in this realm of "bastardom." So, what's your point? Is it social, racial, moral, legal, religious, or maybe pro-life? You make no comment after posting this image. Do you care to elucidate?

I wanted to get a discussion going, raythom.

In Sweden 55% of children are born outside of marriage, in Iceland it is 66%, and in those and many other countries where the percentage of children born outside of marriage is much higher than the U.S., there is not the disparity of outcomes between those children and children born inside of marriage that there is in the U.S. So there must be something else going on, and it probably has a lot to do with the emphasis those countries place on social supports for children and families. Unlike, the U.S., those countries are not possessed of a substantial number of people who believe that the right to life ends at birth.

I believe it comes down to family values. Now if one of my "kids" (27 and 23yo) had a kid out of wedlock, we would do anything we could to support them and the child. But there are many who would (or could) not do that. And those that WOULD NOT, are the problem
This country has always had a sense of family values (at least that was what I was taught and brought up to believe). Mothers/fathers/grandmothers/grandfathers all had a vested inerist in the upbringing and quality of life of the newborn. Sadly, I think many have turned to the gov to take care of that.
Look at the schools. Many use it as day care for their kids. I know many are struggling to feed and cloth thier kids, but the gov/school is not where to turn to for basic necessities. yes, I happen to have had a pretty good life (til I screwed up), but I Always provided for, I always made sure the roof was over their head and they had food on their table. The "bang her and beat it" mentality has manifestid itself into many "fathers" out their not doing what they should. I don't know the society of Iceland but my cousin lives in Sweden and while there are many social programs available to the children he "took over" he is also there for them, mentally, physically and monetarily. My cousin met his "wife" and is raising the children she previously had with the past husband (he died). After 15 years they are not married as if they did, they would lose the gov "benefits" she gets having had a husband who died while she still had children under 18 (or whatever age). Now he makes a very good dollar and could easily afford to marry this woman (a very nice person and both kids are great) and take over what the gov gives them, but why? And to me that is just wrong.

And I am not saying that there are probably many who do actually need the help and we shouldn't help them, but when things turn for the better and you can get off the public dole, do it. Sad part is, many "could" get off the dole but figure, "why bother".

ETA
Besides, it's a little easier to handle a population that is less than NY state (Sweden and Iceland combined) when it comes to social programs.

We've visited this one before.

The largest preventable reason for high rates of teen pregnancy and unwed motherhood in the US (and the high rates of poverty which follow) is the adoption of conservative values in too many states.

http://datacenter.kidscount.org/data/ac ... ch=a&tf=38


Information about birth control.

&

Access to birth control.

Produce the lowest rates.

In other words if you live in a state where they deny science the teen birth rate is highest.



yrs,
rubato

http://www.statehealthfacts.org/compare ... p=3&sort=a

Rank ******** Teen Birth Rate per 1,000
(1=high | 51=low) ********

United States ******** 34.3

1. Mississippi ******** 55
2. New Mexico ******** 52.9
3. Arkansas ******** 52.5
4. Texas ******** 52.2
5. Oklahoma ******** 50.4
6. Louisiana ******** 47.7
7. Kentucky ******** 46.2
8. District of Columbia ******** 45.4
9. West Virginia ******** 44.8
10. Alabama ******** 43.6
11. Tennessee ******** 43.2
12. South Carolina ******** 42.5
13. Arizona ******** 42.4
14. Georgia ******** 41.4
15. Kansas ******** 39.2
16. Wyoming ******** 39
17. Nevada ******** 38.6
18. North Carolina ******** 38.3
18. Alaska ******** 38.3
20. Indiana ******** 37.3
21. Missouri ******** 37.1
22. Montana ******** 35
23. South Dakota ******** 34.9
24. Ohio ******** 34.2
25. Colorado ******** 33.4
26. Illinois ******** 33
26. Idaho ******** 33
28. Hawaii ******** 32.5
29. Florida ******** 32
30. California ******** 31.5
31. Nebraska ******** 31.1
32. Delaware ******** 30.5
33. Michigan ******** 30.1
34. North Dakota ******** 28.8
35. Iowa ******** 28.6
36. Oregon ******** 28.1
37. Utah ******** 27.9
38. Virginia ******** 27.4
39. Maryland ******** 27.2
40. Pennsylvania ******** 27
41. Washington ******** 26.7
42. Wisconsin ******** 26.2
43. New York ******** 22.6
44. Minnesota ******** 22.5
45. Rhode Island ******** 22.3
46. Maine ******** 21.4
47. New Jersey ******** 20.3
48. Connecticut ******** 18.9
49. Vermont ******** 17.9
50. Massachusetts ******** 17.1
51. New Hampshire ******** 15.7

Clever. Clever. "Teen" birth rate figures eh? And we all know that unwed mothers are always teenagers.

Scooter wrote:In Sweden 55% of children are born outside of marriage, in Iceland it is 66%, and in those and many other countries where the percentage of children born outside of marriage is much higher than the U.S., there is not the disparity of outcomes between those children and children born inside of marriage that there is in the U.S. So there must be something else going on, and it probably has a lot to do with the emphasis those countries place on social supports for children and families. Unlike, the U.S., those countries are not possessed of a substantial number of people who believe that the right to life ends at birth.

There is a difference between a mature woman who is financially competent making a rational decision to be a single parent, which is happening in the Scandinavian countries, and teen pregnancy and birth which is happening here. In our case even if they get married their ages and lack of maturity makes divorce more common than not.

In any case we have been running a decades-long experiment to see if making unwed mothers suffer (pity, we have to ruin the lives of the children too) will reform society overall and make teenagers not want to have sex. So far I don't think it's working.

yrs,
rubato

Well stop dating the poor dears then

MajGenl.Meade wrote:Clever. Clever. "Teen" birth rate figures eh? And we all know that unwed mothers are always teenagers.

Snippy and pissy does not an argument make. I have presented both sets of data before. You are welcome to look it up yourself for a change.



yrs,
rubato

MajGenl.Meade wrote:Well stop dating the poor dears then

You appear to be drunk.

yrs,
rubato

I would like something clarified here. Are we talking about the children of single parents here or the children born to a couple who happen not to be married?

Some posters appear to be playing mix 'n' match between the two...

No thanks. I'll just wait for your elucidation.

Point remains:

discussion = unwed mothers
data put up by rubato = teen birth rate

Aside from those being two different things (though the second is no doubt an element of the first), does the map published earlier in this thread show the same thing? Or is the interpretation of the data as "black and hispanic" equally accurate? In accurate? Nothing to do with anything?

I fear that your desire to use the word conservative to explain all negative results is such a reflex that it covers an abysmal lack of genuine thought.

And now we have your psychic* ability to factor in:

joke = drunk

What causes unwed motherhood is sex outside of marriage - Bertrand Russell

Meade

* anyone find an o and a t please advise rubato who has lost them

Sean wrote:I would like something clarified here. Are we talking about the children of single parents here or the children born to a couple who happen not to be married?

Some posters appear to be playing mix 'n' match between the two...

The data in the OP conflates the two as well, by lumping together all births taking place outside of marriage as if they all constitute the same phenomenon.

Yes, rubato keeps posting this data about "teen births," which ignores the more salient issue of birth outside marriage (bastardy).

Most illegitimate births in the U.S. are the product of either carelessness or gross irresponsibility. The "Murphy Brown" births are becoming more common, but statistically they are insignificant. Births to cohabiting "couples" who happen not to be married is a number that should be looked at more closely.

The lack of affordable or available birth control in the U.S. is a non-issue. Any single girl walking into a PP or other "family planning" clinic and asking for BC will have it provided forthwith. The fact is that they do not take the time or have the interest to walk into them because our "social safety net," porous as it is, has made single motherhood economically tolerable, and the culture, porous as it is, has made it acceptable.

But the statistics don't lie. And oddly enough, rubato never publishes them. Men born out of wedlock are more likely to drop out of school, take drugs, be unemployed, be poor, end up in jail, and produce more bastards in the next generation. And blaming this phenomenon on Gub'mint, or supposing that Gub'mint has the solution is stupid beyond imagination.

Men born out of wedlock are more likely to drop out of school, take drugs, be unemployed, be poor, end up in jail, and produce more bastards in the next generation.

In the U.S., but not in many other countries. If those outcomes were controlled for other variables perhaps we could determine what is really driving them, rather than assume that marriage is some sort of magic cape that makes every family into a Norman Rockwell painting.

If you're against teen and other unwed births or abortions then you are for free birth control:



http://www.sfgate.com/health/article/St ... 924284.php

Study: Free birth control cuts abortion
Associated Press
Published 10:26 p.m., Friday, October 5, 2012

Washington --

Free birth control led to dramatically lower rates of abortions and teen births, a large study concludes. The findings were eagerly anticipated and come as a bitterly contested Obama administration policy is poised to offer similar coverage.

The project tracked more than 9,000 women in St. Louis, many of them poor or uninsured. They were given their choice of a range of contraceptive methods at no cost - from birth control pills to goof-proof options like the IUD or a matchstick-size implant.

When price wasn't an issue, women flocked to the most effective contraceptives - the implanted options, which typically cost hundreds of dollars up-front to insert. These women experienced far fewer unintended pregnancies as a result, reported Dr. Jeffrey Peipert of Washington University in St. Louis in a study published Thursday.

The effect on teen pregnancy was striking: There were 6.3 births per 1,000 teenagers in the study. Compare that to a national rate of 34 births per 1,000 teens in 2010.

There also were substantially lower rates of abortion, when compared with women in the metro area and nationally: 4.4 to 7.5 abortions per 1,000 women in the study, compared with 13.4 to 17 abortions per 1,000 women overall in the St. Louis region, Peipert calculated. That's lower than the national rate, too, which is almost 20 abortions per 1,000 women.

In fact, if the program were expanded, one abortion could be prevented for every 79 to 137 women given a free contraceptive choice, Peipert's team reported in the journal Obstetrics & Gynecology.

The findings of the study, which ran from 2008 to 2010, come as millions of U.S. women are beginning to get access to contraception without co-pays under President Obama's health care law. Women's health specialists said the research foreshadows that policy's potential impact.

"It's just an amazing improvement," Dr. James Breeden, president of the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, said of the results. "I would think if you were against abortions, you would be 100 percent for contraception access."

The law requires that Food and Drug Administration-approved contraceptives be available for free to women enrolled in most workplace insurance plans, a change that many will see as new plan years begin on Jan. 1.

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/health/article/St ... z29TDUztCZ
_________________________________________-

yrs,
rubato

dgs49 wrote:Yes, rubato keeps posting this data about "teen births," which ignores the more salient issue of birth outside marriage (bastardy).
... "

Births outside of marriage are only a problem (as I said above) when the woman/girl is emotionally, socially, or materially unprepared to be a parent; hence focussing on teen parents makes perfect sense.


yrs,
rubato