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Coining it!

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 1:46 am
by Gob
If you had to flip a coin over whether the US Congress will raise the country's debt ceiling, here's the ultimate one - a freshly minted trillion-dollar platinum coin.

A formal petition has been started asking the White House to create such a coin in order to avoid another high-stakes fiscal battle to raise the debt ceiling.

The Treasury secretary has the authority to mint platinum coins in the denomination of his choosing. Meant for commemorative products, US law grants Treasury permission to "mint and issue platinum bullion coins and proof platinum coins", which would allow the Treasury to get around legal limits on printing money to pay the bills.
Depositing it would technically pay down US debt, buying time before the country reached the limit on it (the "debt ceiling") again.

It's an idea that's been discussed favourably (albeit cautiously) by everyone from Democrat Representative Jerry Nadler to economist Paul Krugman, who calls it a gimmick but says "there’s a pretty good case for using whatever gimmicks come to hand".

"Should President Obama be willing to print a $US1 trillion platinum coin if Republicans try to force America into default? Yes, absolutely," Mr Krugman writes in his New York Times blog. "He will, after all, be faced with a choice between two alternatives: one that’s silly but benign, the other that’s equally silly but both vile and disastrous. The decision should be obvious.

"By minting a $US1 trillion coin, then depositing it at the Fed, the Treasury could acquire enough cash to sidestep the debt ceiling - while doing no economic harm at all," the Nobel prize laureate writes.

However, it's likely the idea would run into stiff opposition from lawmakers who have been trying to reduce the budget deficits. Creating the cash would also completely override the independence of monetary policy, something the Obama administration has been very careful not to do in the past.


The coin petition is one of many wacky requests to alight on the White House's website. People have petitioned the President to nationalise the Twinkie industry, deport British CNN talk show host Piers Morgan for gun control comments he made on air, and give Vice-President Joe Biden his own TV show.

About 4000 signatures have been collected for the coin petition, which was created two days after lawmakers passed a bill to avert austerity measures of higher taxes and spending cuts.

Shown are the petitioner's first name, first initial of surname, and in most cases, the city. In order to get a formal response from the White House, 25,000 signatures must be collected by early February.

"While this may seem like an unnecessarily extreme measure, it is no more absurd than playing political football with the US - and global - economy at stake," the petition said.

The TV series The Simpsons could take credit for at least some of the inspiration. In an episode in 1998 a $US1 trillion dollar bill from the postwar years went missing. It was Homer Simpson's mission to find it.

The US Treasury began shuffling funds in order to pay government bills after the country hit the $US16.4 trillion legal limit on its debt December 31.

However, the Treasury's accounting maneuvers will last only until around the end of February, giving Congress two months to raise the debt limit before the US defaults on its debt.

Last week's deal forced Republicans to forgo their anti-tax pledges and give in to Democratic demands to raise taxes on the wealthiest.

Now Republicans want to use the debt limit increase to win spending cuts from Democrats as well as major changes to Social Security retirement and Medicare health care programs.



Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/business/world-bu ... z2HLNIn5XM

Re: Coining it!

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:30 am
by Andrew D
Obama need not go to such lengths.

The congressional Republicans have behaved, and have indicated their willingness to behave again, in blatant violation of the Constitution:
The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law ... shall not be questioned.
(Amdt. XIV, Sec. 4.)

The national debt is "the public debt of the United States". That debt is authorized by law, because Congress authorized by law the spending of the money which now constitutes the national debt. Threatening to default on the national debt is "question[ing]" "the public debt of the United States".

It is the President's constitutional duty to "take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed" (Art. II, Sec. 3). The Constitution is "the supreme Law of the Land" (Art. VI).

The President must, in accord with his constitutional duty, ensure that the constitutional mandate is "faithfully executed". And the congressional Republicans who want to prevent him from doing his constitutional duty -- and in the process, breach their own oaths of office -- should suffer the maximum penalty which the Constitution permits.

Re: Coining it!

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:31 am
by Long Run
Imagine that, the Republicans using the leverage they have -- the debt ceiling -- to get what they want -- budget cuts. Kind of like the Democrats using the leverage they had -- the expiring Bush tax cuts -- to get what they wanted -- tax rate increases on upper incomes.

As for the legality, I'm not sure how a law enacted in 1917 that provides a mechanism for Congress to lawfully increase the amount of debt issued by the U.S. Treasury violates any law. Why would a separate authorization for the issuance of debt be an different than when Congress passes a law authorizing a program and then separately passes a law appropriating the funds to pay for it. While it is seemingly superfluous to have to approve the same program twice, it appears to be perfectly legal. As does separately approving debt issuance to pay for the overall budget.

Re: Coining it!

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:35 am
by Long Run
One person's fairly interesting history of the use of the debt ceiling authorization:

http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2011/05/de ... -the-ages/

Re: Coining it!

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:39 pm
by Rick
Andrew D wrote:Obama need not go to such lengths.

The congressional Republicans have behaved, and have indicated their willingness to behave again, in blatant violation of the Constitution:
The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law ... shall not be questioned.
(Amdt. XIV, Sec. 4.)

The national debt is "the public debt of the United States". That debt is authorized by law, because Congress authorized by law the spending of the money which now constitutes the national debt. Threatening to default on the national debt is "question[ing]" "the public debt of the United States".

It is the President's constitutional duty to "take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed" (Art. II, Sec. 3). The Constitution is "the supreme Law of the Land" (Art. VI).

The President must, in accord with his constitutional duty, ensure that the constitutional mandate is "faithfully executed". And the congressional Republicans who want to prevent him from doing his constitutional duty -- and in the process, breach their own oaths of office -- should suffer the maximum penalty which the Constitution permits.
According to this it's not quite that simple
Developments

On Dec. 31, 2012, the United States government officially hit its current authorized borrowing limit — also known as the debt ceiling — of about $16.4 trillion. Treasury Secretary Timothy F. Geithner had informed Congress the week before that he will be able to avoid breaching the limit through “extraordinary measures,’' but only for a matter of weeks.

The news sets up a renewal of the conflict in 2011 that brought the country within days of default and led to the first ever downgrading of the federal government’s credit rating. Congressional Republicans insist that they will continue to demand, as they did in 2011, that any increase in the debt limit be tied to significant spending cuts. But President Obama has said that this time he will not negotiate over the limit.

“I will not have another debate with this Congress over whether or not they should pay the bills that they’ve already racked up through the laws that they passed,” the president said on New Year’s Day, as the House prepared to approve a deal averting the so-called fiscal cliff of scheduled tax increases and spending cuts.

But that bill put off the need for action on sweeping, across the board budget cuts set in motion by the 2011 debt deal for two months — right around when the government might be nearing default.

Overview

Federal law requires Congress to authorize the government to borrow any money that is needed to pay for the programs that Congress has passed.

The Constitution gives Congress the power to control spending and borrowing. The debt limit or debt ceiling was introduced during World War I and was meant to give the Treasury greater flexibility by not having to have Congress approve every new issuance of debt every time the government needed to borrow to pay for things Congress had already voted for.


As the national debt has grown, the Treasury has periodically bumped against this debt limit or debt ceiling. While votes to raise it are among the least popular things Congress does, the limit has been raised dozens of time, generally with little fanfare.

But in 2011, the debt ceiling became the central battleground for the budget conflict between the Republicans who took control of the House in the 2010 elections, and President Obama and the Democrats who still control the Senate, as Republicans refused to raise the limit without a deficit-reduction package.

The impasse over finding spending cuts and tax increases was resolved by a plan to force broad spending cuts if no deal was reached on large-scale deficit reduction. The deal’s so-called sequestration cuts are scheduled to take effect on Jan. 1, 2013 — the day after the Bush-era tax cuts and other stimulus measures are set to expire. The confluence of the spending hikes and potential tax increases became known as the fiscal cliff.

The 2011 deal pushed the next collision with the debt ceiling past the 2012 elections, but by late that year the Treasury Department was warning that it would run out of room to maneuver on the debt sometime in early 2013.

When Mr. Obama presented House Speaker John A. Boehner with his “fiscal cliff’' plan in late November 2012, one proposal was to take the debt ceiling more or less out of Congress’s power. Originally put forward in 2011 by the Republican leader in the Senate, Mitch McConnell of Kentucky, the plan would allow the president to raise the the debt limit unilaterally. Congress could block any increase, but only if it could muster the two-thirds majority that would be needed to override the presidential veto that would be sure to follow.

Both Mr. McConnell and Mr. Boehner rejected Mr. Obama’s plan.

In December, Republicans began discussing a fallback plan in which they would agree to a relatively limited package — like the one that eventually passed — and then dig in on negotiations over raising the debt limit, when they would feel like they had more leverage.

Mr. Obama responded by saying flatly that he would not “play that game.’' He did not say what he would do in response, but some Democrats have urged him in the past to simply raise the borrowing limit using his own executive authority and let the courts determine if he overstepped his constitutional bounds, an approach the White House has rejected.

Later in the month, however, Mr. Obama appeared to drop his demand that Congress give up its power over the debt ceiling, proposing instead that it raise the ceiling by enough to cover two years’ worth of borrowing. And Mr. Boehner offered to extend the debt ceiling by a year, although his proposal went nowhere.

After his talks with Mr. Boehner on the “fiscal cliff’' broke off, Mr. Obama reverted to his firm line on the debt limit. The president and his aides have signaled that they will try to educate the public by explaining that the increase in the borrowing limit is necessary to cover debts that the government has already incurred.

Juggling Bills and Cash

The day after Christmas, Treasury Secretary Timothy F. Geithner informed Congress that the government would hit its $16.4 trillion borrowing limit on Dec. 31.

He said the Treasury would “shortly” begin undertaking “extraordinary measures” to avoid the limit — essentially moving money from pocket to pocket to give the government enough breathing room to pay all of its bills, from soldiers’ salaries to Social Security payments, after that date.

But within weeks — sometime in February or March, analysts estimate — its required payments would overwhelm its receipts, leaving an unprecedented cash shortfall.

The 2011 Debt Ceiling Fight

In May 2011, the Treasury Department said that the debt limit of $14.29 trillion had been reached, but said it could keep the government functioning normally by “extraordinary measures’' that would run their course by Aug. 2. Bipartisan negotiations began, led by Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr., and in late May he said progress had been made toward outlining $1 trillion to $2 trillion in possible savings.

But the talks collapsed in June, as Republicans rebuffed Democratic insistence that a deal include revenue increases as well as spending cuts.

In July, President Obama pushed for a sweeping $4 trillion deficit-reduction deal that would include reductions in Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid as well as changes to plug tax loopholes. The House Republican leader, Speaker John A. Boehner, expressed interest, but quickly backtracked in the face of protests from conservatives opposed to tax increases.

At the end of July, an event that had once seemed unthinkable — a default by the federal government — loomed only days away.

Late on the night of July 31, President Obama and Congressional leaders of both parties announced an agreement that would raise the debt ceiling by up to $2.4 trillion in two stages, enough to keep borrowing into 2013. The pact called for at least $2.4 trillion in spending cuts over 10 years, with $900 billion in across-the-board cuts to be enacted immediately.

A bipartisan Congressional commission, or “super committee,” was given the task of coming up with the second round of deficit reduction. To put pressure on, a “trigger’' was adopted that meant a failure by Congress to enact those cuts would lead to across-the-board cuts in military spending, education, transportation and Medicare payments to health care providers. The committee reached a stalemate in November.

In accordance with the July 31 deal, Congress raised the debt limit to $15.2 trillion at that time; in January 2012, the limit rose to $16.4 trillion after Senate Democrats voted down a “resolution of disapproval’' that had been passed by House Republicans.

Girding for Another Fight

In May 2012, Speaker Boehner set the stage for a bruising election-year showdown on fiscal policy, vowing to hold up another increase in the federal debt ceiling unless it was offset by larger spending cuts.

The Boehner comments, made at a fiscal summit meeting in Washington on May 15, were the first public shot in what promises to be the most consequential budget fight in a generation. On Jan. 1, 2013, nearly $8 trillion in tax increases and across-the-board spending cuts are scheduled to take effect.

Mr. Boehner said he would not allow Congress to duck tough decisions with another round of short-term measures. He also said the House would pass an extension of the Bush-era tax cuts before the November elections, and he urged lawmakers in both parties to reach a long-term deal on spending and tax changes — but no additional taxes — to head off a fiscal calamity.

Democrats immediately accused Mr. Boehner of once again holding the nation’s full faith and credit hostage to his conservative political agenda, even as Republicans cut corners on the deal struck last summer to end the last debt-ceiling crisis.

Treasury Secretary Timothy F. Geithner, speaking at the same meeting, said the government could bump into its borrowing limit before the end of the year, but, he said, the Treasury has enough “tools” to keep the government afloat into early 2013.

While the Republicans largely prevailed in 2011, this time the Obama administration believes it has the greater leverage. The pain of the reductions is being felt as House Republicans advance the annual spending bills; already they have proposed to raise the spending caps for the military, and they are squabbling over domestic programs.

Re: Coining it!

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:00 pm
by Andrew D
Long Run wrote:Imagine that, the Republicans using the leverage they have -- the debt ceiling -- to get what they want -- budget cuts. Kind of like the Democrats using the leverage they had -- the expiring Bush tax cuts -- to get what they wanted -- tax rate increases on upper incomes.
Kind of like it on the surface, but radically different in its substance. The debt ceiling applies to bills which the US -- i.e., Congress -- has already incurred. Defaulting on the national debt would be more akin to raising taxes retroactively rather than merely prospectively.

If you are in so much debt that you need to borrow from new creditors in order to pay your existing creditors -- as, for example, by taking a second mortgage on your house to pay your credit card bills -- your finances are in bad shape. You need to spend less money, bring in more money, or both.

But a sensible solution to that problem is emphatically not simply telling your existing creditors to go stuff themselves. Unless one is seriously suggesting that the US go bankrupt, gamesmanship with the faith and credit of the US is foolish.

It is also dangerous. Merely getting near defaulting on our national debt caused the US's credit rating to be lowered for the first time ever. Actually defaulting on our national debt could be cataclysmic.

And that may explain why Mitch McConnell persistently refuses to answer whether he would be willing to take the US into default over the spending-cuts issue. He ducked the question repeatedly on This Week with George Stephanopoulos and on Meet the Press.

After all, the politics of gamesmanship with the debt ceiling are appealing only to the crackpot contingent in the House. For the rest of the Republicans, Newt Gingrich -- and it say something about the debased state of political debate in this country that Gingrich is emerging as a voice of reason -- summed it up aptly:
“They’ve got to find, in the House, a totally new strategy,” Gingrich said on MSNBC’s “Morning Joe.” “Everybody’s now talking about, ‘Oh, here comes the debt ceiling.’ I think that’s, frankly, a dead loser. Because in the end, you know, it’s gonna happen. The whole national financial system is going to come in to Washington and on television and say: ‘Oh my God, this will be a gigantic heart attack, the entire economy of the world will collapse. You guys will be held responsible.’ And they’ll cave.”

Re: Coining it!

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:05 pm
by Andrew D
The quoted New York Times article does not address the Constitution's command that "[t]he validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law ... shall not be questioned."

Re: Coining it!

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:23 pm
by Rick
Soooo, the public debt is valid.

Congress not the President (he has limited and finite extarordinary powers in this area) has to allow, according the Statute, the Ceiling on that debt to be raised without suffering automatic cuts on items they have voted in.

You already know what those items are and have seen the result of those automatic cuts so I won't bother listing them...

Re: Coining it!

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:31 pm
by Big RR
If Obama tried to unilaterally increase the debt, whether constitutional or not, I'd bet he'd be impeached pretty quickly, and might even be removed from office by senators on both sides of the aisle who would feel disenfranchised by the action. It may not be a "high crime or misdemeanor", but I would think congress, which has the sole power to impeach the president, could vote to impeach/reove from office for whatever reason it wants. At the very least, we could end up with a major constitutional crisis; I doubt Obama would chance it.

Re: Coining it!

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:50 pm
by Lord Jim
I don't know about Impeachment, but they would certainly take him to court...

I'm sure it would be fast tracked to the SC for a decision, but even so it would take a week or two before a decision would be handed down....

In the meantime, we would be in no man's land....

Would the government continue to pay all of it's bills? Would Obama's unilateral decision to do so be in place, or would some federal judge enjoin that decision until the courts had ruled? Would Obama obey such a lower court ruling? Would we go back and forth between whether it was in place or not as the process went forward, (even in a speedy way) depending on how a federal judge rules, and then how a federal appellate court rules?

Could it go straight to the SC? If so, you'd still have to have some kind of immediate ruling on whether or not we would go into default prior to arguments being heard, and a decision handed down...

I have to believe that should it come to this unhappy pass, the courts would rule that Obama could continue to have the government pay the bills at least until a final decision was reached by the SC, but who knows?

This is really a nightmare scenario...even a few days of default could throw the economy into a tailspin, and uncertainty hanging over what would happen would also be a disaster.

Re: Coining it!

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:15 pm
by Rick
Andrew I will concede this, from an article in 2011

Obama had to face a reelection then and does not now, it's short but interesting:
PRESIDENT OBAMA should announce that he will raise the debt ceiling unilaterally if he cannot reach a deal with Congress. Constitutionally, he would be on solid ground. Politically, he can’t lose. The public wants a deal. The threat to act unilaterally will only strengthen his bargaining power if Republicans don’t want to be frozen out; if they defy him, the public will throw their support to the president. Either way, Republicans look like the obstructionists and will pay a price.

Where would Mr. Obama get his constitutional authority to raise the debt ceiling?

Our argument is not based on some obscure provision of the 14th amendment, but on the necessities of state, and on the president’s role as the ultimate guardian of the constitutional order, charged with taking care that the laws be faithfully executed.

When Abraham Lincoln suspended habeas corpus during the Civil War, he said that it was necessary to violate one law, lest all the laws but one fall into ruin. So too here: the president may need to violate the debt ceiling to prevent a catastrophe — whether a default on the debt or an enormous reduction in federal spending, which would throw the country back into recession.

A deadlocked Congress has become incapable of acting consistently; it commits to entitlements it will not reduce, appropriates funds it does not have, borrows money it cannot repay and then imposes a debt ceiling it will not raise. One of those things must give; in reality, that means that the conflicting laws will have to be reconciled by the only actor who combines the power to act with a willingness to shoulder responsibility — the president.

Franklin D. Roosevelt saw this problem clearly, and in his first inaugural address in 1933, addressing his plans to confront the economic crisis, he hinted darkly that “it is to be hoped that the normal balance of executive and legislative authority may be wholly equal, wholly adequate to meet the unprecedented task before us.”

“But it may be,” he continued, “that an unprecedented demand and need for undelayed action may call for temporary departure from that normal balance of public procedure.” In the event, Congress gave him the authorities he sought, and he did not follow through on this threat.

The basic problem today is that the president and the House Republicans are locked in a classic bargaining game. The worst outcome for both is default on the debt, but each side holds out for a favorable deal. They will certainly go to the wire, but economists who have studied bargaining games have shown that there is always a real possibility of breakdown rather than compromise, because only by refusing to deal can each side convey the seriousness of its position. That is why labor strikes occur even though workers and managers do jointly better if they make a deal. Failure to raise the debt ceiling, however, is not akin to any old plant shutdown: it would be catastrophic.

A proposal has been floated by Senator Mitch McConnell of Kentucky, the Republican minority leader, under which Congress would delegate to the president the power to raise the debt ceiling, subject to some minor procedural constraints. Mr. McConnell’s ploy is suspect, because it assumes away the problem that it attempts to solve: the internal paralysis of Congress. Congress probably cannot act on its own — for example, by creating a veto-proof budget — because it is internally deadlocked. Not only do Democrats and Republicans disagree, but so do the Republican leaders, who want to avoid a debt default, and the Tea Party-inspired Republican back-benchers, who appear to believe that only a purifying Götterdämmerung can put public finances back in order. The latest proposed deal negotiated by House Speaker John A. Boehner and President Obama is vulnerable to the same problem.

Discussions of an earlier proposal to rely on the 14th Amendment for the President’s authority to raise the debt level centered on whether the debt issued after the president’s action would be under a cloud. Commentators pointed out that the language in the 14th Amendment, which commands that the validity of legally authorized public debt shall not be questioned, does not explicitly authorize the president to do anything. But debt under a cloud is better than default. It would be better if the parties made a deal, but if they don’t, default is the worst outcome.

The 14th Amendment is a red herring, however; even if its debt provision did not exist, the president would derive authority from his paramount duty to ward off serious threats to the constitutional and economic system.

Mr. Obama needs to make clear that he will act unilaterally to raise the debt ceiling if Congress does not cooperate; if he does so, then we predict that Congress will cooperate by enacting the McConnell plan or a similar fig leaf, and so Mr. Obama will not need to follow through on his threat, and the constitutional crisis will pass — just as it did with Roosevelt. Republicans will be publicly outraged, but privately relieved. They do not want an economic catastrophe; they can avoid violating their no-taxes pledge; and they retain the power to fight the budget battle another day. As for the president, he really has no other choice.

Eric A. Posner, a professor of law at the University of Chicago, and Adrian Vermeule, a professor of law at Harvard, are the authors of “The Executive Unbound: After the Madisonian Republic.”
Oh Yeah it's an Op Ed piece and I hate Op Eds but it's still interesting....

Re: Coining it!

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:46 pm
by Andrew D
As Gingrich observed, if the Republicans pick a fight over the debt ceiling, it is far more likely that, in the end, "they'll cave" than it is that they will force Obama's hand by allowing the US to default on its debt. (Unless, of course, the dung-hurling howler monkeys of the far right somehow get their way.)

What remains is whether they will play brinksmanship with the debt ceiling again. If they are politically (rather than ideologically) sane, they will not. When they engaged in this foolishness in 2011, a CNN/ORC poll found that Americans thought, by a margin of 52% to 46%, that Obama had acted responsibly. Americans thought, by a margin of 63% to 33%, that congressional Republicans had not acted responsibly. And most tellingly, if the debt ceiling were not raised, Americans would blame that, by a margin of 51% to 30%, on the Republicans, not Obama.

That was hardly surprising, because Americans favored Obama's policies over the policies of the Republicans:
Specifically, more than 70 percent of Americans favor a plan that raises taxes on “those who make more than $250 thousand a year,” businesses that own private jets, oil and gas companies – as well as ending the federal subsidies that those businesses receive.

Spending cuts, however, get minimal support. Just 12 percent say they would support cutting the amount spent on Medicare, and only 22 percent would support cuts to Medicaid. Cutting federal subsidies to farmers or benefits for retired government workers get support from just 31 percent and 30 percent of Americans, respectively. Cutting defense spending would seem to be the most acceptable of the cuts, with 47 percent saying they would favor such a measure.
I have not seen any neutral polling about whom Americans would blame for debt-ceiling shenanigans this year, but the Republicans are already taking it in the teeth over the "fiscal cliff" negotiations: According to an ABC News / Washington Post poll, "Obama gets majority approval for his handling of the negotiations, 52-37 percent, while Boehner’s score is reversed – just 31 percent approve of his performance on the cliff talks, while 51 percent disapprove."

I see no reason to think that Americans' reaction to debt-ceiling foolishness will be any different this year than it was in 2011. Indeed, it might well be even stronger. After all, a majority of Americans voted in 2012 to put the entire government in the hands of the Democrats: Had the House elections not been rigged, we would have a Democratic President, and Democratic Senate, and a Democratic House. All indications point toward one conclusion: Most Americans are just plain sick and tired of the Republicans.

Re: Coining it!

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:05 pm
by Long Run
It is bad governance to use the debt ceiling limit rather than the normal legislative process to address policy concerns. And it appears to also be bad politics (and look to the future when the situation could well be reversed -- note that the Ds gave Bush grief on raising the debt ceiling limit as well). I think the Rs are pretty angry that they didn't get anything in return for the tax bump for higher earners -- if Obama had given them something for that, he might avoid their retribution on the debt ceiling. And the next election is so far off, they will not suffer if they use this strategy to get more spending reductions. Of course, if there was any sign that the Ds were serious about proposing or negotiating a long term plan to address the budget deficit, then the debt ceiling issue might also be off the table. Plenty of poor leadership on all fronts.

Re: Coining it!

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:49 pm
by Rick
Plenty of poor leadership on all fronts
I certainly agree there...

Re: Coining it!

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:01 pm
by Andrew D
Long Run wrote:It is bad governance to use the debt ceiling limit rather than the normal legislative process to address policy concerns. And it appears to also be bad politics (and look to the future when the situation could well be reversed -- note that the Ds gave Bush grief on raising the debt ceiling limit as well). ... Of course, if there was any sign that the Ds were serious about proposing or negotiating a long term plan to address the budget deficit, then the debt ceiling issue might also be off the table.
If it is bad governance to use the debt-ceiling limit rather than the normal legislative process to address policy concerns -- and I agree that it is -- then the debt-ceiling issue should be off the table in any event. (For that matter, a self-imposed sequestration "crisis" is not good governance either.) We have a budget process, and that is how such issues should be worked out.

Votes on the debt ceiling have followed a pretty consistent pattern: When we have undivided government, the party in power votes to raise the debt ceiling, and the party out of power votes against raising it; when we have divided government, the vote to raise it is bipartisan (with bipartisan opposition). But I have not yet found an instance, before 2011, when a party had the power to put the US into default and threatened to do so.

In September 2011, Obama proposed a detailed deficit-reduction plan. Including its numerous tables and such, it runs some 80 pages. It's been quite a while since I read it carefully, but I just cruised it and did some arithmetic. By that casual reading, I find 67 specifically described items of deficit reduction (some of which are further subdivided), and they total about 2.4 trillion dollars over 10 years.

That's $2,392,164,000,000.

Maybe I am missing something, but that looks like a "serious ... propos[al] ... [of] a long term plan to address the budget deficit" to me.

Re: Coining it!

Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:05 pm
by Long Run
Maybe I am missing something, but that looks like a "serious ... propos[al] ... [of] a long term plan to address the budget deficit" to me.
When it actually receives one vote from any House member or Senator, then we can say it is serious. (97-0 and 414-0 votes last time around). Or, maybe when Obama uses some relevant media time or an ounce of political capital trying to get it implemented, then we can say it is serious.

Re: Coining it!

Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:31 am
by Andrew D
Long Run wrote:
Maybe I am missing something, but that looks like a "serious ... propos[al] ... [of] a long term plan to address the budget deficit" to me.
When it actually receives one vote from any House member or Senator, then we can say it is serious. (97-0 and 414-0 votes last time around).
I am amazed, Long Run, that you would fall for such dizzyingly obvious spin. Nothing which you have thus far adduced supports your claim that Obama is not "serious about proposing or negotiating a long term plan to address the budget deficit".

Neither of the votes which you cite was on the ten-year deficit-reduction plan to which I referred. Both of those votes were on single-year budget proposals. So your reference to when "it actually receives one vote from any House member or Senator" is misleading: You portray the Senate and House votes as having been votes on Obama's deficit-reduction plan of September 2011; in fact, however, they were not.

And those votes were on two different single-year budget proposals. One of those was voted on before Obama even issued his September 2011 deficit-reduction plan, and the other was on a budget proposal never actually made by Obama.

The Senate vote was in May of 2011, so it self-evidently could not have been a vote taken on anything proposed four months later. The Republicans’ attempt to bring an Obama single-year budget proposal – which, again, was not a ten-year deficit-reduction plan – up for a vote was pure gimmickry: As they knew perfectly well, the budget proposal which they attempted to bring up for a vote had already been superseded by a different Obama single-year budget proposal. There was no reason for Democratic Senators to vote for a budget proposal which had already been superseded. Which is why the Republicans tried to bring it up for a vote.

What the Republicans cynically brought up in the House “was not, in fact, Obama's entire budget proposal.” Rather, it used “Obama's top-line spending and revenue numbers as a budget proposal, without any specifics.” It was “’a very misleading version of what the President has asked us to do.’"

Besides all that, even if the votes which you cite were somehow relevant, they would still be of no significance. As even conservative scholars acknowledge, “such votes are taken ‘just as a means of embarrassing the president and his party,’ said Patrick Louis Knudsen, a senior fellow with the conservative Heritage Foundation. ‘Usually it’s brought up by the opposition party because they generally anticipate that a president’s budget won’t get very much support especially if it has controversial elements to it,’ he said.” In other words, “Norman Ornstein, a scholar with the conservative American Enterprise Institute, said, ‘it doesn’t mean a damn thing. It’s only a symbolic gesture.’”

If you claim that Obama has not been "serious about proposing or negotiating a long term plan to address the budget deficit," then please adduce some evidence supporting that claim. Thus far, you have not.