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Let The Obese And The Smokers Die?

Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 4:29 pm
by dales



NEW YORK — Faced with the high cost of caring for smokers and overeaters, experts say society must grapple with a blunt question: Instead of trying to penalize them and change their ways, why not just let these health sinners die?

Annual health care costs are roughly $96 billion for smokers and $147 billion for the obese, the government says. These costs accompany sometimes heroic attempts to prolong lives, including surgery, chemotherapy and other measures.

But despite these rescue attempts, smokers tend to die 10 years earlier on average, and the obese die five to 12 years prematurely, according to various researchers' estimates.

And attempts to curb smoking and unhealthy eating frequently lead to backlash: Witness the current legal tussle over New York City's first-of-its-kind limits on the size of sugary beverages and the vicious fight last year in California over a ballot proposal to add a $1-per-pack cigarette tax, which was ultimately defeated.

"This is my life. I should be able to do what I want," said Sebastian Lopez, a college student from Queens, speaking last September when the New York City Board of Health approved the soda size rules.

Critics also contend that tobacco- and calorie-control measures place a disproportionately heavy burden on poor people. That's because they:

_Smoke more than the rich, and have higher obesity rates.





_Have less money so sales taxes hit them harder. One study last year found poor, nicotine-dependent smokers in New York – a state with very high cigarette taxes – spent as much as a quarter of their entire income on smokes.

_Are less likely to have a car to shop elsewhere if the corner bodega or convenience store stops stocking their vices.

Critics call these approaches unfair, and believe they have only a marginal effect. "Ultimately these things are weak tea," said Dr. Scott Gottlieb, a physician and fellow at the right-of-center think tank, the American Enterprise Institute.

Gottlieb's view is debatable. There are plenty of public health researchers that can show smoking control measures have brought down smoking rates and who will argue that smoking taxes are not regressive so long as money is earmarked for programs that help poor people quit smoking.

And debate they will. There always seems to be a fight whenever this kind of public health legislation comes up. And it's a fight that can go in all sorts of directions. For example, some studies even suggest that because smokers and obese people die sooner, they may actually cost society less than healthy people who live much longer and develop chronic conditions like Alzheimer's disease.

So let's return to the original question: Why provoke a backlash? If 1 in 5 U.S. adults smoke, and 1 in 3 are obese, why not just get off their backs and let them go on with their (probably shortened) lives?

Because it's not just about them, say some health economists, bioethicists and public health researchers.

"Your freedom is likely to be someone else's harm," said Daniel Callahan, senior research scholar at a bioethics think-tank, the Hastings Center.

Smoking has the most obvious impact. Studies have increasingly shown harm to nonsmokers who are unlucky enough to work or live around heavy smokers. And several studies have shown heart attacks and asthma attack rates fell in counties or cities that adopted big smoking bans.

"When you ban smoking in public places, you're protecting everyone's health, including and especially the nonsmoker," said S. Jay Olshansky, a professor at the University of Illinois-Chicago's School of Public Health.

It can be harder to make the same argument about soda-size restrictions or other legislative attempts to discourage excessive calorie consumption, Olshansky added.

"When you eat yourself to death, you're pretty much just harming yourself," he said.

But that viewpoint doesn't factor in the burden to everyone else of paying for the diabetes care, heart surgeries and other medical expenses incurred by obese people, noted John Cawley, a health economist at Cornell University.

"If I'm obese, the health care costs are not totally borne by me. They're borne by other people in my health insurance plan and – when I'm older – by Medicare," Cawley said.

From an economist's perspective, there would be less reason to grouse about unhealthy behaviors by smokers, obese people, motorcycle riders who eschew helmets and other health sinners if they agreed to pay the financial price for their choices.

That's the rationale for a provision in the Affordable Care Act – "Obamacare" to its detractors – that starting next year allows health insurers to charge smokers buying individual policies up to 50 percent higher premiums. A 60-year-old could wind up paying nearly $5,100 on top of premiums.

The new law doesn't allow insurers to charge more for people who are overweight, however.

It's tricky to play the insurance game with overweight people, because science is still sorting things out. While obesity is clearly linked with serious health problems and early death, the evidence is not as clear about people who are just overweight.

That said, public health officials shouldn't shy away from tough anti-obesity efforts, said Callahan, the bioethicist. Callahan caused a public stir this week with a paper that called for a more aggressive public health campaign that tries to shame and stigmatize overeaters the way past public health campaigns have shamed and stigmatized smokers.

National obesity rates are essentially static, and public health campaigns that gently try to educate people about the benefits of exercise and healthy eating just aren't working, Callahan argued. We need to get obese people to change their behavior. If they are angry or hurt by it, so be it, he said.

"Emotions are what really count in this world," he said.

Re: Let The Obese And The Smokers Die?

Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 7:08 pm
by rubato
If we had not started an aggressive anti-smoking campaign in California there would be 5.3 million more smokers today. It has taken time, persistence, and faith in ourselves to do it but we now have an adult smoking rate of 12% vs 26%. The rate appears to be dropping continually for children as well as adults so I don't know where it will level off.

http://www.cdph.ca.gov/PublishingImages ... ts2010.jpg

Image


We will do the same for obesity, in time. It is only recently that Obesity has become a crisis and that we have started to pay attention to it as a public health issue so we are just now trying to find the best methods of reducing it; just as in 1984 we did not know how we were going to reduce smoking. But we will explore methods and I am confident in ultimate success. The fact that obesity as stopped increasing is a good sign. Banning super-sized sugar infusions is a start.

Getting people to quit smoking is a lot more difficult so I expect that we will see a rapid improvement in eating habits over the next 10 years.


yrs,
rubato

Re: Let The Obese And The Smokers Die?

Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 7:31 pm
by rubato


Critics also contend that tobacco- and calorie-control measures place a disproportionately heavy burden on poor people. That's because they:

_Smoke more than the rich, and have higher obesity rates.
So the benefits of anti-smoking campaigns and anti-obesity campaigns are greater for the poor. I don't begrudge them.



_Have less money so sales taxes hit them harder. One study last year found poor, nicotine-dependent smokers in New York – a state with very high cigarette taxes – spent as much as a quarter of their entire income on smokes.
It's their money they can choose to spend it elsewhere. Pigovian taxes work. Good for us!
Critics call these approaches unfair, and believe they have only a marginal effect. "Ultimately these things are weak tea," said Dr. Scott Gottlieb, a physician and fellow at the right-of-center think tank, the American Enterprise Institute.
The AEI is a factory for right-wing soundbites mostly for the ignorant, see the reduction in smoking rates above. (also mentioned in the article above).

"When you eat yourself to death, you're pretty much just harming yourself," he said.
Spoken like someone who has never sat next to a morbidly obese person on an airliner. Or who does not know that obese people have families to care for, skills and knowledge which will be lost from the workforce, and who, as productive and healthy people earn income and thus pay taxes and support their communities.
That's the rationale for a provision in the Affordable Care Act – "Obamacare" to its detractors – that starting next year allows health insurers to charge smokers buying individual policies up to 50 percent higher premiums. A 60-year-old could wind up paying nearly $5,100 on top of premiums.
Starting 5 years ago my employer's health plan charged smokers $500/ year more and tacked on an additional $500 if you refused to take a 'health assessment' which included BMI measurements. So that trend was already in place. It was inevitable, in any case. Also, as the numbers of smokers decreased the number of people who would have a self-interest reason to oppose such a legitimate and fair use of market discrimination decreased as well.
"...

National obesity rates are essentially static, and public health campaigns that gently try to educate people about the benefits of exercise and healthy eating just aren't working, Callahan argued.
[/quote]

Actually (as I mentioned above) the fact that the obesity rate has stopped increasing is evidence of progress.

Re: Let The Obese And The Smokers Die?

Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 7:56 pm
by Lord Jim
Critics also contend that tobacco- and calorie-control measures place a disproportionately heavy burden on poor people. That's because they:

Smoke more than the rich, and have higher obesity rates.
So the benefits of anti-smoking campaigns and anti-obesity campaigns are greater for the poor.
LOL!!! :lol:

How did you work that one out, Einstein?

Pigovian taxes work.
Excellent...

I propose the establishment of a tax on stupidity...

Presumably that will encourage you to become intelligent....(though in your case, you're likely to go broke first...)

Re: Let The Obese And The Smokers Die?

Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 8:59 pm
by rubato
Lord Jim wrote:
Critics also contend that tobacco- and calorie-control measures place a disproportionately heavy burden on poor people. That's because they:

Smoke more than the rich, and have higher obesity rates.
So the benefits of anti-smoking campaigns and anti-obesity campaigns are greater for the poor.
LOL!!! :lol:

How did you work that one out, Einstein?

Pigovian taxes work.
Excellent...

I propose the establishment of a tax on stupidity...

Presumably that will encourage you to become intelligent....(though in your case, you're likely to go broke first...)

Because I can do arithmetic. If you start with a larger population of smokers or the obese the eventual improvement will be greater.

The poor also have fewer assets in addition to their health and number of years of life. By quitting, even individually, they will get a greater benefit to their total well-being.



yrs,
rubato

Re: Let The Obese And The Smokers Die?

Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:28 pm
by Lord Jim
I can do arithmetic.
Is that a fact...

The available evidence would not seem to support that assertion, (well I recall how you were unable to properly read a simple one column table in the discussion about Norway and the elimination of Capital Punishment, and I can think of a number of other examples where basic math seems to have left you overly challenged...)

But be that as it may, this particular claim of yours isn't invalidated by your poor math skills, it's invalidated by your poor reasoning skills, and complete ignorance of the facts.

I know that you will now more than likely do what you usually do when pinned to the wall, and try to weasel out of the ignorant thing you initially said by making a completely new assertion and claiming that it is identical to the first one you made, but for the record, here's what you said:
the benefits of anti-smoking campaigns and anti-obesity campaigns are greater for the poor.
That assertion evinces a stunning level of ignorance; all the available evidence shows precisely the opposite...

It is in fact people who are from the higher levels of income where these publicity campaigns have been most effective; levels of obesity and the percentage of cigaret smokers remain the highest among the lowest economic groups...

So the claim that "the benefits of anti-smoking campaigns and anti-obesity campaigns are greater for the poor" is at once both ignorant and idiotic.

Re: Let The Obese And The Smokers Die?

Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:48 pm
by TPFKA@W
die? ``they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population.

Re: Let The Obese And The Smokers Die?

Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:52 pm
by Lord Jim
Image

"die? ``they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population."

Re: Let The Obese And The Smokers Die?

Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:00 pm
by dales
Everyone dies.

some people take too dammed long :)

Re: Let The Obese And The Smokers Die?

Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:31 pm
by Crackpot
The obesity problem is not going to be solved until they make food producers truly responsible for the contents of their products.

Re: Let The Obese And The Smokers Die?

Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:00 am
by rubato
smoking rates by income for the US overall, 2009:

Image


Smoking rates for 2 income levels in california 2010:

http://californiawatch.org/dailyreport/ ... d-low-7621
" Households with an income of $150,000 or more had a smoking rate of 7.8 percent, compared to 19.8 percent among households with an income of less than $20,000. "

The match is not perfect but we can still draw some useful conclusions from it.


What this data tells us is that in a state with an active anti-smoking campaign smoking rates are about 1/3 lower than the US overall (20% vs 30%). In other words anti-smoking campaigns do work in lower-income populations and because they start from a higher basis there is a greater eventual reward.

for 2 populations of equal size, say 1,000 each, the numbers are.
income level ....... US overall smokers ... Calif ... difference
20,000/yr ......... 300 ..................... 198 ........... 102 fewer smokers in poor group.
>150,000/yr ......... 130 ............... 78 .......... 52 fewer smokers in rich group.

So that for equal populations a LOT more poor smokers have actually quit in Calif vs rich smokers because the starting rate was much higher. If the entire US had used as active a method as Calif. the health of many more poor people would be improved than rich.

California's overall smoking rate was exactly the same as the national rate in 1984 and it is reasonable to infer that the composition was also the same.

Both the benefits of health and the cost of ill-health are greater for the poor as well so that a poor individual who quits smoking has a greater proportional benefit.


And LJ is apparently unable to think in an organized fashion.


yrs,
rubato

Re: Let The Obese And The Smokers Die?

Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:44 am
by rubato
http://www.med.unc.edu/healthonwheels/f ... 0study.pdf

" ... Tobacco control efforts may have the greatest
infl uence when they are tailored toward persons at
high risk for smoking. We observed that rural residence
itself is a risk factor for smoking and that many wellknown
risk factors for smoking, such as male gender
and low socioeconomic status, 15,16 are especially
important among persons residing in rural locations. In
rural America, persons who are unemployed are
especially likely to smoke. Among minority group
members residing in rural locations, American Indians,
particularly those living in rural adjacent locations,
have a prevalence of current smoking that is nearly
double that of other groups. Moreover, younger adults
and those with low income were observed to have a
rising prevalence of smoking. ... "

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2598468/


yrs,
rubato

Re: Let The Obese And The Smokers Die?

Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:15 pm
by Lord Jim
Oh dear me...

Now you have found a way to work your poor math skills into the discussion:
20,000/yr ......... 300 ..................... 198 ........... 102 fewer smokers in poor group.
>150,000/yr ......... 130 ............... 78 .......... 52 fewer smokers in rich group.
Laying aside the fact that those samples are far too small to reach any conclusions from, all they show is that in those two tiny studies, the percentage affected by anti-smoking ads is roughly equal. (Which even if valid, would show that anti-smoking ads are less effective for lower income groups since they tend to watch more hours of television and thus have higher rates of exposures to the ads, a fact which this study apparently does not account for) In other words,with that flaw in the statistical methodology, this study show that if you're a poor person, the odds that you will be impacted beneficially by by an anti smoking medai campaign are no greater, and most likely less, than if you are a relatively wealthy person.

Nearly every other word in those two posts of yours does absolutely nothing but back up my statement:

"the percentage of cigaret smokers remain the highest among the lowest economic groups"

Thanks for going to the trouble of doing that.

And you have also done precisely what I predicted you would do:

you will now more than likely do what you usually do when pinned to the wall, and try to weasel out of the ignorant thing you initially said by making a completely new assertion and claiming that it is identical to the first one you made

So that for equal populations a LOT more poor smokers have actually quit in Calif vs rich smokers because the starting rate was much higher. If the entire US had used as active a method as Calif. the health of many more poor people would be improved than rich.
You're now trying to argue that just because there are more poor than rich, that poor people benefit more than rich people . Applying this 'reasoning" one could try to claim that if there were 10 times as many people in the lower bracket than in the top bracket, that even if anti-smoking campaigns resulted in only 20% as many people in the lower bracket quitting as in the upper, that ads were more effective for poor people, since the raw number of poor people who quit would still be higher.

That would not only be a completely intellectually dishonest claim for anyone with even the most rudimentary understanding of statistical analysis, (assessing the relative effectiveness of the ads for rich and poor has to be based on statistical percentages not raw numbers...Otherwise, why do the study? Everybody knows there are more poor people than rich people) but it is also not at all what you initially said.

You couldn't find any support for what you actually said:
the benefits of anti-smoking campaigns and anti-obesity campaigns are greater for the poor.
So you now created a new claim, for which you felt you could find some evidence.

If the benefits of ant-smoking campaigns were truly greater for the poor than the rich, then since their introduction one would expect that the relative percentage of poor people who smoke dropping faster than that of rich people, and therefore the statistical percentages of the two groups who smoke would be growing ever closer, which of course as you have so helpfully shown, isn't happening.

Re: Let The Obese And The Smokers Die?

Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:18 pm
by Guinevere
Crackpot wrote:The obesity problem is not going to be solved until they make food producers truly responsible for the contents of their products.
And we stop subsidizing the overgrowth of corn, sugar, wheat, and other commodity crops at the expense of actual healthy food crops.

Re: Let The Obese And The Smokers Die?

Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:24 pm
by TPFKA@W
Guinevere wrote:
Crackpot wrote:The obesity problem is not going to be solved until they make food producers truly responsible for the contents of their products.
And we stop subsidizing the overgrowth of corn, sugar, wheat, and other commodity crops at the expense of actual healthy food crops.

Here's a novel idea: Let's encourage cosumers to take responsibility for the contents of their stomachs.

Re: Let The Obese And The Smokers Die?

Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:27 pm
by Guinevere
Absolutely. But that requires knowledge, education, and choice. Things not everyone has, in a world where HFCS is insidious, unnecessary except to use up all that corn, and make good food "cheaper," more processed, and less healthy.

Re: Let The Obese And The Smokers Die?

Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:10 pm
by rubato
LJ, you are not trying to understand you are merely nurturing the seeds of hatred in yourself by deliberate mis-interpretation and distortion of what others have said. I have explained it more than adequately for an honest person of average intelligence.

yrs,
rubato

Re: Let The Obese And The Smokers Die?

Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:23 pm
by Lord Jim
LMAO :lol:
rubato wrote:LJ, you are not trying to understand you are merely nurturing the seeds of hatred in yourself by deliberate mis-interpretation and distortion of what others have said. I have explained it more than adequately for an honest person of average intelligence.

yrs,
rubato
That should read:
Damn, busted again.... :(

yrs,
rubato
And btw, rube, I fully understand what's happened here....

You made an assertion that you realized you couldn't support and then dishonestly attempted to morph it into a different assertion that you thought you could....(As everyone here knows, you have done this on numerous other occasions)

If you weren't so intellectually insecure, you could have avoided falling into this trap yet again, by simply saying something like, "okay, what I said initially really wasn't accurate. Here's what I really should have said:..."

I and others here have never had any problem doing this, but you apparently are simply psychologically incapable of it. Generally this causes you to just keep returning to the topic and digging yourself a deeper and deeper hole, (though on this occasion you have apparently decided to avoid this, opting to simply declare yourself right, claim that everyone can see that, and presumably dropping the topic without firing any more shots at your feet...)

Re: Let The Obese And The Smokers Die?

Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:40 pm
by rubato
Guinevere wrote:Absolutely. But that requires knowledge, education, and choice. Things not everyone has, in a world where HFCS is insidious, unnecessary except to use up all that corn, and make good food "cheaper," more processed, and less healthy.

Education is something we can do. Just begin by treating sugar differently so that people see controlling sugar intake as a critical part of their diets. We we lived in Portland it was common to see families shopping for groceries and buying multiple cases of sodas stacked on their carts. You also see a lot of morbid obesity and much more obesity in general than you do here. Large grocery stores were all equipped with a row of electric carts so the morbidly obese (who at that point probably had joint and heart problems which made walking difficult) didn't have to walk around the store.

The underlying problem with obesity is that food has become too cheap too quickly* for our behavioral adaptation to keep up. Our diets were controlled before by the fact that the highest-value foods were scarce or expensive so we 'rationed' them and ate less and our culture didn't adapt with education-based mechanisms for controlling food intake. There is also the powerful and harmful effect of advertising which has nothing to counter it. We have been hard-wired by 500,000 years of evolution to respond emotionally to images of food so that we're sitting ducks for the barrage of ads with intense close-ups of steaming pizza, burgers, &c.

We see the same trend happening across the 1st world although there is a lag since they have attained relative affluence more recently.

But staying on the theme of 'too cheap' soda here costs so much less that companies can pay to ship it to Japan and still undercut the local price:

http://www.nytimes.com/2000/01/26/busin ... all&src=pm

yrs,
rubato

Re: Let The Obese And The Smokers Die?

Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 7:17 pm
by Crackpot
TPFKA@W wrote:
Guinevere wrote:
Crackpot wrote:The obesity problem is not going to be solved until they make food producers truly responsible for the contents of their products.
And we stop subsidizing the overgrowth of corn, sugar, wheat, and other commodity crops at the expense of actual healthy food crops.

Here's a novel idea: Let's encourage cosumers to take responsibility for the contents of their stomachs.
So everyone must have a degree in chemistry in order to read a food label? There is so much tat is not known about the additives in our foods ( regulation amounts to does it act as described and is it lethal) but the FDA figures that's the producers job and the producer figures why kill the goose that laid the golden egg? So the research just doesn't get done.