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Why we can't wait

Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:48 pm
by Guinevere
A line of questioning and argument at SCOTUS in yesterday's hearing on California's Prop 8 seems to be that because gay marriage is so "new" and as a society we don't really understand all the ramifications, the court should hold back from making any decision now. Frankly, I think that's a cowards reasoning, and an argument that the opponents of gay marriage are making only because they don't have much else to rest on.

In reading and thinking more about it, I thought about the civil rights movement, and why Dr. King was so sure the time was "right" back then -- and was reminded of his Letter from a Birmingham Jail. It says so well why the time is now.

Excerpt:
We know through painful experience that freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed. Frankly, I have yet to engage in a direct-action campaign that was "well timed" in the view of those who have not suffered unduly from the disease of segregation. For years now I have heard the word "Wait!" It rings in the ear of every Negro with piercing familiarity. This "Wait" has almost always meant "Never." We must come to see, with one of our distinguished jurists, that "justice too long delayed is justice denied."
Full letter here: http://mlk-kpp01.stanford.edu/index.php ... irmingham/

Re: Why we can't wait

Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:51 pm
by Crackpot
Fix yur link it's wassing up the screen making it unreadable

Re: Why we can't wait

Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:17 pm
by Guinevere
I don't see any issues on my screen, and its not a long link.

Re: Why we can't wait

Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:29 pm
by Crackpot
It is on mine granted I'm using an iPhone but the last few underscores are making the screen too wide.

Re: Why we can't wait

Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:11 pm
by Econoline
FWIW...no problem w/ the link on my Blackberry.

Re: Why we can't wait

Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:20 pm
by Crackpot
I suspect (as usual) that it's a skin issue

Re: Why we can't wait

Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 12:43 am
by Lord Jim
As I understand it, in the Prop 8 case, there are essentially four options available to The Court:

1. Overrule the lower court ruling and re-instate Prop 8...(Which would mean that gay marriage would remain illegal in California, and the ruling would have no affect in the rest of the country)

2.Hold that the appellants in the Prop 8 case had no standing to bring the appeal, and issue no further ruling or judgement in the case beyond that finding...(Which would mean that the lower court ruling would stand, and gay marriage would be legal in California, but again, have no affect on the rest of the country)

3. Choose the "One Plus Nine" option, which would declare gay marriage legal in California, and the nine other states which have have adopted "civil union" legislation granting gay couples all of the rights available to straight married couples, absent the use of the word "marriage"...

4.Declare the right to marry without regard to gender a basic Constitutional right, and issue a ruling that would strike down every state prohibition against it, and establish a uniform national standard making gay marriage "the law of the land..."

I have not listened to the entire tapes of the oral arguments, but what I have gleaned from fairly objective Court observers who were present at the proceedings...(Like NBC's Pete Williams and CNN's Jefferey Toobin) is that based on the questions and observations made by the Justices, the consensus is this:

That option 2 is far and away the most likely judgement that will be made...

There was little taste for the maximalist position of option 4, which was argued by Ted Olsen and David Boise...(those names may be familiar to you... 8-) ) even amongst a couple of the more liberal members of The Court, who expressed a clear desire to decide this case narrowly...

That would appear to be a non-starter with this Court; The Court is not going to use this case to have a Loving type moment, or view the issue in the same way...

Nor does there appear to be a majority for option 3, (the position argued by The Justice Department) that those states that have granted full rights to "civil unions" must therefore fall under the rubric of "marriage"...

The question was raised by several Justices, (including Justice Kennedy, who is seen as pivotal to forming a majority in this case) that if you arbitrarily imposed legal "marriage" on those states which had granted additional rights to gay couples, (but which had specifically not included the word "marriage") would you be punishing those states, and possibly discouraging other states from also granting those rights? (Which seems like a very fair question to me...)

So that brings us back to option 2...

Today we had the Oral Arguments Re DOMA...

On this one, the proponents of gay marriage would appear to have more of an upper hand, based on the analysis I've followed...

[Laying aside of course the seeming contradiction of arguing one day that gay marriage is fundamentally a guaranteed right within the Constitution; irrespective of the actions of the States, and then arguing on the very next day, (literally.... 8-) though in fairness it wasn't the same folks making the arguments) that "marriage'" should be defined by the States, and that the Federal Government should play no role in the definition...]

From what I've seen on this, there appears to be a clear majority on The Court (to some extent across ideological boundaries) for striking down DOMA on the grounds that the definition of "marriage" should be a State matter....

Re: Why we can't wait

Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 12:21 pm
by rubato
Guinevere wrote:A line of questioning and argument at SCOTUS in yesterday's hearing on California's Prop 8 seems to be that because gay marriage is so "new" and as a society we don't really understand all the ramifications, the court should hold back from making any decision now. Frankly, I think that's a cowards reasoning, and an argument that the opponents of gay marriage are making only because they don't have much else to rest on.
... "

The "It's so new" argument was a surprise and is, of course, a complete lie. It is just a way of conservatives who would have happily raised grandchildren who persecuted homosexuals saying that they now admit their ideology is collapsing in the public debate and want to drag their feet a little more as a gesture of spite.

The comparison to the comments of MLK was very apt.

The change will be painful for a lot of people but it is definitely time to move on.



yrs,
rubato

For them it is even more bitter that they have lost the racist bugle call to 'hate and blame illegal immigrants for everything' electioneering tactic at the same time.

Re: Why we can't wait

Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:14 pm
by dgs49
The right of pree-verts to marry one another is clearly contained within the emanations and penumbras of the Ninth Amendment.

Re: Why we can't wait

Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:24 pm
by Scooter
As is the right of knee-grows, no doubt.

Re: Why we can't wait

Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 2:36 am
by Econoline
Finally! The insidious Gay Agenda is revealed, in all its flagrant insidiousness!

Image

Re: Why we can't wait

Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 12:27 pm
by Sue U
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Re: Why we can't wait

Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 2:07 pm
by oldr_n_wsr
I was with her until she watched Rachel Maddow. Swamp people would have been much more entertaining and informative.
:nana

Re: Why we can't wait

Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 2:42 pm
by Lord Jim
She lets the cat out of the bag with the agenda item at 7:45.... :?

Well here's some unexpected good news for the pro-gay marriage side...

Rush Limbaugh throws in the towel:
Rush Limbaugh: Gay marriage ‘inevitable,’ conservatives ‘lost’

Conservative talk show how Rush Limbaugh said Thursday on his radio show that conservatives have lost the gay marriage debate and that it is now “inevitable.”

“This issue is lost,” he said. “I don’t care what the Supreme Court does. This is inevitable. And it’s inevitable because we lost the language on this.”

Limbaugh added that conservatives lost the debate because they allowed the term “marriage” to be “bastardized.”

“As far as I’m concerned, once we started talking about gay marriage, traditional marriage, opposite-sex marriage, same-sex marriage, hetero marriage, we lost,” Limbaugh said. “It was over.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/pos ... ives-lost/

Re: Why we can't wait

Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 10:56 pm
by Grim Reaper
The 'language was lost' because they certainly didn't have an argument to stand behind other than bible thumping.


And it turns out that Justice Scalia outright lied by claiming that there is significant disagreement by sociologists over how same-sex marriage affects raising children. This claim was made even though the American Sociological Association had already filed a brief stating the exact opposite, that there is no difference between same-sex and opposite-sex parents when it comes to raising children.

Re: Why we can't wait

Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 11:26 pm
by Scooter
They lost because language like this:
It's ultimately the abolition of any moral behavior with regards to human sexuality. The whole assault on marriage is really an attempt to obliterate not only morality, but Judeo-Christian morality, to obliterate marriage and to even obliterate the idea that there is even a God.
sounds completely absurd to anyone with the brain cells of a turnip.

IOW, they lost because more and more they sound like demented freaks.