Page 1 of 2
Life means (not) life
Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:05 pm
by Gob
Ministers angry at European whole-life tariffs ruling
Ministers have criticised a ruling by the European Court of Human Rights that whole-life tariffs breach a prisoners' human rights.
In a case brought by murderer Jeremy Bamber and two other killers, judges said such sentences had to be reviewed at some point.
To never have any possibility of parole was inhuman or degrading, they said.
The prime minister said he "profoundly disagrees". Justice Secretary Chris Grayling also criticised the ruling.
Mr Grayling said the human rights convention's authors would be "turning in their graves".
Bamber brought the case to the court's upper chamber, along with serial killer Peter Moore and double murderer Douglas Vinter, after losing a previous appeal.
The government cannot appeal against this ruling, which applies in England and Wales, but now has six months to consider its response.
The ruling follows earlier clashes between the government and the court over the deportation of Abu Qatada and giving the vote to prisoners.
The prime minister said he was "very, very disappointed" at the ruling, adding that he was a "strong supporter of whole-life tariffs".
Justice Secretary Chris Grayling said: "I don't believe that the people who wrote that convention ever imagined that it would stop a judge saying to a really evil offender - 'you'll spend the rest of your life behind bars'.
"It reaffirms, to me, my own determination to bring real changes to our human rights laws and to see a real curtailing of the role of the European Court in this country."
Home Secretary Theresa May told MPs the public would be "dismayed" by the ruling.
She has previously said she has not ruled out the UK's withdrawal from the European Convention on Human Rights, although this would be looked at after the next general election.
The three men are among a group of 49 people in England and Wales who are serving whole-life tariffs.
This means they cannot be released other than at the discretion of the justice secretary on compassionate grounds - for example, if they are terminally ill or seriously incapacitated.
Up until 2003, all terms could be reviewed, including whole-life tariffs after 25 years.
The men claimed that being denied any prospect of release was a violation of Article 3 of the European Convention on Human Rights - which protects people from inhuman or degrading treatment.
The court found that for a life sentence to remain compatible with the European Convention on Human Rights there had to be both a possibility of release and a possibility of review.
The judges said if there was no prospect of release, there was a risk the prisoner "can never atone for his offence".
"Whatever the prisoner does in prison, however exceptional his progress towards rehabilitation, his punishment remains fixed and unreviewable."
The judges said it was up to the national authorities to decide when such a review should take place, but that comparisons with other countries suggested a review after 25 years, with further periodic reviews thereafter, might be appropriate.
Former Labour Home Secretary David Blunkett said his government changed the law in 2003 "so that life really meant life when sentencing those who had committed the most heinous crimes".
"Whatever the technical justification the Strasbourg court may have, it is the right of the British Parliament to determine the sentence of those who have committed such crimes," he said.
Tory MP Dominic Raab said the verdict was an "attack on British democracy" which showed "the warped moral compass of the Strasbourg Court".
Victims of crime have also criticised the ruling, saying it does not consider the human rights of victims and their families.
Rape victim Helen Stockford, who's waived her right to anonymity so she can campaign for a change in the justice system, said the ruling showed the court was "standing up for the offenders, i.e. the criminals, all the time".
But QC Pete Weatherby - who represented the three men in their appeal - said the UK was "completely out of kilter" with the rest of Europe on the issue.
And Juliet Lyon, director of the Prison Reform Trust, said re-establishing the principle of right to review would help "restore balance" to the penal system and aid rehabilitation.
"It might be better if the prime minister were a strong supporter of rehabilitation and redemption rather than the eternal punishment and damnation that is a whole-life tariff with no prospect of review," she said.
Bamber was jailed for the five murders in Essex in 1985.
He has always protested his innocence and claims his schizophrenic sister Sheila Caffell shot her family before turning the gun on herself.
In a statement which appeared on his blog, which is part of the Jeremy Bamber Campaign website, he said the victory was "hollow".
"Reviews and parole hearings are subject to a risk assessment to gauge dangerousness and this is influenced by the inmate's confession, remorse and rehabilitation for reintegration back into the community.
"In my case I do not fit the criteria for parole on this basis."
But Bamber's cousin David Boutflour told the BBC he was guilty.
"We've had 27 years of Jeremy coming up with some hob-nob idea that he's innocent or making waves all the time," he said. "We're never left alone.
"He's killed five people for heaven's sake, he should stay where he is."
Moore killed four gay men for his sexual gratification in north Wales in 1995.
In 2008, Vinter, from Middlesbrough, admitted killing his wife Anne White. He had been released from prison in 2005 after serving nine years for murdering a colleague.
Vinter's solicitor, Simon Creighton, said the ruling could not be used as a "get out of jail free" excuse for life-term prisoners.
"It's very important that the court has recognised that no sentence should be once and for all and there should always be some right to look at some sentences again in the future," he said.
"They have not said that anyone must be released, what they have said is that it must be reviewed."
In Scotland, there is no provision for a whole-life tariff, while prisoners given such a sentence in Northern Ireland may already have their cases reviewed.
Re: Life means (not) life
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:37 am
by Lord Jim
We death penalty supporters have argued for years that once the DP was abolished and replaced by Life Without Parole, that it would be just a matter of time before some clattering nincompoops would come along to argue how "barbaric" LWOP parole is...
Seems we were right...
Juliet Lyon, director of the Prison Reform Trust, said re-establishing the principle of right to review would help "restore balance" to the penal system and aid rehabilitation.
"It might be better if the prime minister were a strong supporter of rehabilitation and redemption rather than the eternal punishment and damnation that is a whole-life tariff with no prospect of review," she said.
I propose that Ms. Lyon be required to spend the night with any of the little darlin's she advocates should be released...
Justice Secretary Chris Grayling said: "I don't believe that the people who wrote that convention ever imagined that it would stop a judge saying to a really evil offender - 'you'll spend the rest of your life behind bars'.
"It reaffirms, to me, my own determination to bring real changes to our human rights laws and to see a real curtailing of the role of the European Court in this country."

Re: Life means (not) life
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:02 am
by Scooter
So they do what California did when death sentences were overturned in the 70s and they had to convert them to life with the possibility of parole - conduct sham hearings in which everyone knew that the person would never be granted parole.
Or, here's a thought, have the confidence that parole boards are capable of exercising the judgment they are entrusted to use, and thus to decide who needs to remain in prison and who does not.
Re: Life means (not) life
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:13 am
by Lord Jim
conduct sham hearings in which everyone knew that the person would never be granted parole.
Well, that seems like sort of a band-aid approach, but I suppose it's better than nothing....
Re: Life means (not) life
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:19 am
by dales
Any Manson People Released Out On Parole?
Not Even Cancer-Riddled Susan Atkins Was Released.
One Mansonite Did Get Out.
Anyone Know?
Anyone Remember?
Re: Life means (not) life
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:26 am
by Gob
What Is With The Capitals Dales?
Re: Life means (not) life
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:29 am
by dales
Being unconventional is my forte.
Re: Life means (not) life
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:21 am
by Lord Jim
I hate to break this to you Dale, but I care as much about the fate of the Mansonites as I do about that Cinders cricket thingy between Britain and Australia....

Re: Life means (not) life
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:54 am
by dales
Well let me say this in your defense, Jim......you could've searched for the answer on line and fooled all of us. But you chose the honorable path. The path of not knowing the burning answer to an earth-shaking question regarding CM.
The initials are S. G.
KUDOS!

Re: Life means (not) life
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:07 am
by Gob
Lord Jim wrote:I hate to break this to you Dale, but I care as much about the fate of the Mansonites as I do about that Cinders cricket thingy between Britain and Australia....

Oy! I heard that!!
Re: Life means (not) life
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:15 am
by oldr_n_wsr
Don't do the crime if you won't do the time.
Re: Life means (not) life
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:51 pm
by Big RR
We death penalty supporters have argued for years that once the DP was abolished and replaced by Life Without Parole, that it would be just a matter of time before some clattering nincompoops would come along to argue how "barbaric" LWOP parole is...
Seems we were right...
Juliet Lyon, director of the Prison Reform Trust, said re-establishing the principle of right to review would help "restore balance" to the penal system and aid rehabilitation.
"It might be better if the prime minister were a strong supporter of rehabilitation and redemption rather than the eternal punishment and damnation that is a whole-life tariff with no prospect of review," she said.
Jim--I guess it depends what you see as the ultimate goal of the prison system--removing people from society (so they can hurt no one else), punishment, or rehabilitation. If it's the latter (and many societies claim that it is), then periodic review of a sentence and the prisoner's progress toward rehabilitation makes sense. No one, including Ms. Lyon whom you quote, is recommending that un-rehabilitated criminals be released, only that their progress should be periodically reviewed. If not, then it belies the statement that we are dedicated to rehabilitation, a position which is endorsed by the EU.
IMHO, it's a debate worth having, so that a society may understand how its criminal justice system works; paying lip service to rehabilitation while endorsing LWOP, seems to be inconsistent, unless, perhaps, we say some crimes are so heinous that rehabilitation is impossible and that imprisonment of the offenders for their entire lives is the nly way society can protect itself. But I do think we should be true to ourselves about what we believe.
Re: Life means (not) life
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:33 pm
by Guinevere
Big RR - yes but - - - I'm a death penalty opponent who thinks some people are beyond rehabilitation (at least one who is standing trial in the federal courthouse in Boston this morning comes immediately to mind), and rather than the DP they should get life without parole, which means life without parole. Period.
Re: Life means (not) life
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:43 pm
by Big RR
Guin--I understand that, and even agree that some will not be rehabilitated. But shouldn't a good system be able to judge who has been rehabilitated and who hasn't? We can (in the US) condemn a person to be executed by a trial; couldn't we do the same to see if person should be released or kept imprisoned? Must we tie our hands instead of leaving it up to the process?
Re: Life means (not) life
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:52 pm
by Joe Guy
In my opinion, some crimes are so heinous that the person who commits one of those crimes should never be given a second chance.
How do you rehabilitate a mass murderer, for example?
Get him to say he promises to never do it again?
Re: Life means (not) life
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:11 pm
by Scooter
Aren't theists supposed to believe in miracles?
Re: Life means (not) life
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:15 pm
by Crackpot
What do miracles have to do with it?
Re: Life means (not) life
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:25 pm
by Scooter
God could take a mass murderer and get him to see the error of his ways and so lead him to true repentance, because God wants to use him for some special purpose. By putting him to death or imprisoning him for life without parole, wouldn't you be interfering with God's plan?
Re: Life means (not) life
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:27 pm
by dales
No.
Re: Life means (not) life
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:28 pm
by Joe Guy
In some cases God's plan is for someone to be put to death or be imprisoned for life without parole.