Or if this kid has some developmental disorder that prevents him from conforming his behavior, wouldn’t it be appropriate to administer a benzo or some other medication that could induce some calm? Adults take them for travel anxiety, why can’t kids?
If I’d had to sit through this for 8 hours straight I would’ve lost my mind. Transatlantic airline tickets aren’t cheap - I’d be outraged if the crew did nothing to address this. Everyone else on that flight deserves at very least a discount voucher from the airline, IMHO.
Surely there is a time & place for discipline?
Surely there is a time & place for discipline?
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan
~ Carl Sagan
Re: Surely there is a time & place for discipline?
Maybe he was an emotional support kid?
Surely there is a time & place for discipline?
“In a world whose absurdity appears to be so impenetrable, we simply must reach a greater degree of understanding among us, a greater sincerity.”
Re: Surely there is a time & place for discipline?
You'll all be feeling very embarrassed when it is revealed that he had been kidnapped and just wanted to go back home...
Re: Surely there is a time & place for discipline?
While it is annoying and the parents should not be flying with that kid, I'm not sure what could be done while the flight was underway. Short of Ray's proposed solution or the parent cold cocking the kid and knocking him out, there really wasn't very much that could be realistically done as it appears that this kid has some pretty serious emotional/mental problems (and I hope he gets treatment for them). I guess the plane to could be turned around and landed to deplane the kid, but I have never seen an airline do this, even once when a guy had a heart attack enroute to San Francisco from Hawaii, so I sincerely doubt they ever entertained that (which is why I agree with BSG that some compensation was owed.
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Burning Petard
- Posts: 4627
- Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 5:35 pm
- Location: Near Bear, Delaware
Re: Surely there is a time & place for discipline?
Sorry, but I assume lazy parenting. This kid has been trained to do this. He has learned that when he is instructed to do something not of his choice, making this noise will change the adult behavior round him so that he gets what he wants. This child has simply not been in an environment where conditions of change were outside his parents control. He made this noise because it had always worked for him in the past.
Children are very efficient beings. This kind of noise requires lots of effort from the child. If it had not worked in the past, he would not have done it on the plane.
Unhappily, an adult who is one-tenth as disruptive would have prompted massive interference from the plane crew very quickly, while strangers, even official authority figures, are very limited in what they are permitted to do to children when the parents will not bring it to a halt.
Your own black-out mask and noise cancelling ear phones seem to be the only defense for the ordinary passenger.
snailgate
Children are very efficient beings. This kind of noise requires lots of effort from the child. If it had not worked in the past, he would not have done it on the plane.
Unhappily, an adult who is one-tenth as disruptive would have prompted massive interference from the plane crew very quickly, while strangers, even official authority figures, are very limited in what they are permitted to do to children when the parents will not bring it to a halt.
Your own black-out mask and noise cancelling ear phones seem to be the only defense for the ordinary passenger.
snailgate
Re: Surely there is a time & place for discipline?
BP--you could e right, or this kid could have serious problems (I assume the latter given how long it continued). But either way, there's literally nothing anyone could do at the time short of knocking him out or landing and putting him off the plane. The same would be true of an adult doing the same sort of thing.
Re: Surely there is a time & place for discipline?
Apparently noise-cancelling headphones didn’t drown out his high-pitched screaming, I heard a passenger say that in the longer version video (or it was captioned) that was on Daily Mail.
I’m going to say something now that will get me excoriated, but: in my time of childhood (the harrowing 70s) I knew a lot of parents, and grandparents, who would have responded to such a tantrum with 1) a spanking, or if that didn’t work, 2) tape applied over the mouth. It’s a rather efficient technique that renders loud, high-pitched screaming impossible - the kid can only scream inside his/her mouth and most of the volume is trapped in their own heads.
Now of course, the child must be monitored for adequate breathing through the nasal passages - but beyond that safeguard, what is so terrible about such a punishment for truly obnoxious temper tantrum behavior? Today it would get a parent thrown in jail.
Personally if that was my kid, I’d have given him a strong dose of children’s Benadryl or something else (liquor?) to put him to sleep. I’d feel absolutely sick if my kid tormented a plane full of people for 8 hours behaving like that. I wouldn’t stand for it. ‘Honey, calm down’ in a quiet voice would not be my approach to the problem.
Perhaps it’s good I never had kids, though I know a lot of kids who were raised by parents who wouldn’t ever allow this behavior to go unpunished and they’re not all serial killers. None, in fact, that I know of.
I’d bet my next paycheck that the mother STILL doesn’t think that kid is unfit for common carrier travel.
I’m going to say something now that will get me excoriated, but: in my time of childhood (the harrowing 70s) I knew a lot of parents, and grandparents, who would have responded to such a tantrum with 1) a spanking, or if that didn’t work, 2) tape applied over the mouth. It’s a rather efficient technique that renders loud, high-pitched screaming impossible - the kid can only scream inside his/her mouth and most of the volume is trapped in their own heads.
Now of course, the child must be monitored for adequate breathing through the nasal passages - but beyond that safeguard, what is so terrible about such a punishment for truly obnoxious temper tantrum behavior? Today it would get a parent thrown in jail.
Personally if that was my kid, I’d have given him a strong dose of children’s Benadryl or something else (liquor?) to put him to sleep. I’d feel absolutely sick if my kid tormented a plane full of people for 8 hours behaving like that. I wouldn’t stand for it. ‘Honey, calm down’ in a quiet voice would not be my approach to the problem.
Perhaps it’s good I never had kids, though I know a lot of kids who were raised by parents who wouldn’t ever allow this behavior to go unpunished and they’re not all serial killers. None, in fact, that I know of.
I’d bet my next paycheck that the mother STILL doesn’t think that kid is unfit for common carrier travel.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan
~ Carl Sagan
Re: Surely there is a time & place for discipline?
those parents clearly should not have subjected the persons on the flight to this kid who clearly should not be flying; however, I do question how he got to Germany in the first place, as some of the accounts I read said the mother was American. If he caused a similar ruckus going over, the airline should not have let him fly (and those people the airline inconvenienced by doing so are due compensation); if not, I wonder what caused this. Was he in distress for some reason (maybe due to a medical problem like an inner ear conditions that caused excruciating pain)? Was there ay other reason? I think the kid has some serious mental and/or emotional problems, and problems much more severe than can be handled by a spanking, but we will need to see more to be certain. Face it, 8 hours of continuous screaming is excessive for even the most spoiled brat.
However, whatever the reason, and even if I were on the plane, I would not condone drugging or making the kid drink alcohol as such could be tremendously dangerous without medical supervision (I also would not condone cracking him over the head to knock him out). Taping his mouth shut? From what it looks like you would have to restrain him as well, and unless that is done correctly, it can do more harm than good.
However, whatever the reason, and even if I were on the plane, I would not condone drugging or making the kid drink alcohol as such could be tremendously dangerous without medical supervision (I also would not condone cracking him over the head to knock him out). Taping his mouth shut? From what it looks like you would have to restrain him as well, and unless that is done correctly, it can do more harm than good.
Last edited by Big RR on Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Surely there is a time & place for discipline?
I agree with Snailgate. That kid didn't just become a monster on the day of the flight. Doesn't the airline have the right to say that you can't be on this flight if you can't control your child? They probably could but in the current state of PC correctness and victimhood, the airline would probably be sued for disallowing a parent the ability to let a child express himself.
Surely there is a time & place for discipline?
BSG, had the parents used the ol' tape-over-the-mouth trick I'm sure things would have calmed down quickly. However, if the airline had suggested it there would have been passenger pandemonium... and a rather large lawsuit that would surely follow.
The parents are the root cause of this behavior and they need much psychological counseling.
The parents are the root cause of this behavior and they need much psychological counseling.
“In a world whose absurdity appears to be so impenetrable, we simply must reach a greater degree of understanding among us, a greater sincerity.”
Re: Surely there is a time & place for discipline?
Ray--when I worked in the ER, the few times we put a straight jacket on an individual did not result in calming things down. quickly or otherwise. Indeed, their thrashing and yelling, etc. became more pronounced because they were restrained; it kept them from hurting themselves or others, but drugs were needed to curtail the actions. I'd bet the same would be true here as well; not to mention that the tape would also have to immobilize him--his arms because he could just pull it off, and securing him to his seat so he could not run around. You'd need a pretty big roll of tape and people who knew what they were doing (not to mention what might have happened if he were restrained and there was a crash or other emergency.
As for the parents being the cause here, I think we need a lot more information before we can conclude that; he could be mentally ill, emotionally disturbed, suffering from a medical condition, etc., all of which were not the fault of the parents. And I still think 8 hours is way too long for a bratty tantrum; it's possible, I guess, but I think there are other likely causes for his behavior than just acting out because he wasn't getting his way.
As for the parents being the cause here, I think we need a lot more information before we can conclude that; he could be mentally ill, emotionally disturbed, suffering from a medical condition, etc., all of which were not the fault of the parents. And I still think 8 hours is way too long for a bratty tantrum; it's possible, I guess, but I think there are other likely causes for his behavior than just acting out because he wasn't getting his way.
Re: Surely there is a time & place for discipline?
8 hours is a long time for this but ... Some children can't re-equalize the pressure in their middle ear so it could have been pain. And there can be anatomic anomalies which can make this worse. IMO the child is too young for bad parenting to explain it.
yrs,
rubato
yrs,
rubato
Re: Surely there is a time & place for discipline?
Pour a couple shots of Jack Daniels into him. Problem solved.
Treat Gaza like Carthage.
Re: Surely there is a time & place for discipline?
The French used to use vodka in the formula.Jarlaxle wrote:Pour a couple shots of Jack Daniels into him. Problem solved.
yrs,
rubato
Re: Surely there is a time & place for discipline?
The screams started before the plane took off, and do not appear to have been caused by pain. In retrospect, the airline should have moved back to the gate and made them get off and not be able to book a flight until they have a plan to deal with the kid (i.e., a medication program). It would be nice to be able to hold the parents responsible as well.
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oldr_n_wsr
- Posts: 10838
- Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 1:59 am
Re: Surely there is a time & place for discipline?
On the way back from Aruba in september, we sat next to a lady with a very small child. The kid was fantastic. Nary a squeal, and barely a word. Just sat on moms lap (I assume it was "mom") and played with some toys the whole way. I was more figety that that child. 
8 minutes of a kid screaming is too much, forget about 8 hours.
I would have ended up drinking on that flight (just kidding).
8 minutes of a kid screaming is too much, forget about 8 hours.
I would have ended up drinking on that flight (just kidding).
Re: Surely there is a time & place for discipline?
Charge them for what it costs to refund everyone else's fare cost.Long Run wrote:The screams started before the plane took off, and do not appear to have been caused by pain. In retrospect, the airline should have moved back to the gate and made them get off and not be able to book a flight until they have a plan to deal with the kid (i.e., a medication program). It would be nice to be able to hold the parents responsible as well.
Treat Gaza like Carthage.