Israel at War

[BoSoxGal]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... re_btn_url

This weekend I watched a report on one of the major news channels about the systematic destruction of the hospital system in Gaza by the IDF, and the persecution of physicians many of whom have been held for interrogation.

I don't know who Israel is anymore. It's like waking up after decades of marriage to learn your spouse is a serial killer.

The death toll in Gaza is now ~39,000+, according to reporting in The Jerusalem Post. The Lancet in a recent article suggests a conservative estimate of four indirect deaths for every direct death reported which would put the overall death toll attributable to the conflict closer to ~190,000.

October 7, 2023 was an unimaginable horror.

The response is an ongoing horror of unimaginable proportions.

Bibi is a madman. The support for this wholesale massacre of civilians is shocking. Less than 20% of Israelis in a recent Pew survey feel the response has gone too far.

When I started this thread I had no idea how awful the awful could be.

[Big RR]

That's the biggest problem, generations of hatred and violence have caused all sides to retreat into more of the same. It will take real leadership and courage to break the cycle, and I really don't see that on either side. And that's the real pity, because it's the defenseless, especially the children, who will suffer and just build up more hatred.

But I am somewhat hopeful--after decades of hatred and violence, people on both sides of the Irish "troubles" siadd enough was enough and entered into a peace agreement--I wish the same here. But the first thing you have to let go of (or at leas subordinate) is the hatred and the desire to get even. May that happen hear as well, lest we just keep perpetuating the hatred.

[Burning Petard]

There is the fable of the scorpion who convinces the frog to take the scorpoin across the river. It ends badly for both. For my limited understanding, this seems to be the truth for every culture in that region. I have no answer. Just grief.

snailgate.

[Big RR]

Key to that fable is the frog being gullible and the scorpion evil; the frog refused to see the scorpion for what it was and the scorpion didn't see the frog as anything but a dupe who deserved death. The end was predestined.

But what we need here is a frog and a scorpion who realize they need to live together and cannot win; so the frog will try to protect itself while ferrying the scorpion and the scorpion will refrain from its attack. The moral of the fable is that you have to presume your enemy cannot change and so you give them quarter at your peril. I hope we can all do better than that, because there is no "winning" (or even hope) otherwise.

When Jesus said "love your enemies" and "turn the other cheek" I don't think that he was advising being stupid--people should still act pragmatically and stand up for what is right (remember him in the templye on Palm Sunday?), but that we should see our enemies as people and seek an accord rather than destruction. At a time when people just struck out and any perceived enemies and massacred and/or enslaved them, this was astounding advice--but it is the only way forward if we are to survive.

[Jarlaxle]

That's the biggest problem, generations of hatred and violence have caused all sides to retreat into more of the same. It will take real leadership and courage to break the cycle, and I really don't see that on either side. And that's the real pity, because it's the defenseless, especially the children, who will suffer and just build up more hatred.

But I am somewhat hopeful--after decades of hatred and violence, people on both sides of the Irish "troubles" siadd enough was enough and entered into a peace agreement--I wish the same here. But the first thing you have to let go of (or at leas subordinate) is the hatred and the desire to get even. May that happen hear as well, lest we just keep perpetuating the hatred.

One side had not vowed to wipe out the other to the last man, woman, and child in Ireland. They have in Israel.

There is, exactly, one way to stop the fighting, and nobody is willing to do it.

[Big RR]

No, that might stop the fighting temporarily, and further fighting down the road.

And as for the IRA--their goal was the English/British pout of Norther Ireland (including the loyalists there); and a I recall they would do whatever is necessary to accomplish that. Pretty much sounds like wiping out the loyalists or getting them to leave.

[MajGenl.Meade]

their goal was the English/British pout of Northern Ireland

Still pouting though

[Big RR]

Excellent proofreading skills once again Meade. Thanks

And FWIW, I am sure there are many still pouting.

[MajGenl.Meade]

[BoSoxGal]

The IDF is bulldozing the West Bank.

Netanyahu is Trump on steroids; he’s never going to agree to cease fire because he cares more about his own hide than he does the best interests of Israel.

How many terrorists for Hamas have been made in this past year?

How many people across the globe have witnessed the destruction of Gaza and now the West Bank and become very much in touch with their inner antisemite?

I don’t think I could have imagined this awful of awful coming from October 7.

[BoSoxGal]

Today is heartbreaking- I really wanted to see Hersch come home alive to his family.

Hamas clearly doesn’t care about the people of Gaza.

[BoSoxGal]

Are we all just so exhausted and dispirited that we have no comment on Netanyahu’s latest insanity?

[Burning Petard]

I think many of us are exhausted by our helplessness. There was an editorial cartoon yesterday that featured an American couple in a small appliance store, one asking the other, speculating about what it must be like to realize commonly used gadgets are made by enemies who might convert them into bombs. They were standing in a store surrounded by phones and many other things all made in China.

I think the analogy of waking up to suddenly know the spouse next to you in bed is a serial killer if familiar. But in this case, Hamas , the IDF the leadership of many of the states in the region, all seem to be holding hand grenades with the pin pulled. No regard for what it is doing to themselves and it is all acceptable collateral damage.

It seems I am in a world community where everyone would rather be dead right.

snailgate.

[BoSoxGal]

I would like just a short visit inside the mind of Bebe Netanyahu. Tie a rope around me so you can pull me back out before I get trapped in there with the ghouls.

He’s clearly trying to escalate the Middle East to influence the USA election.

[Sue U]

I would like just a short visit inside the mind of Bebe Netanyahu. Tie a rope around me so you can pull me back out before I get trapped in there with the ghouls.

He’s clearly trying to escalate the Middle East to influence the USA election.

I don't think that's his objective, although certainly he'd be happier with Trump in office. If he's thinking about the US elections at all, he's thinking "what can I do (get away with) before there is a change in administration, and if the change is unfriendly, what can I do that will force the U.S. to continue supporting me?"

Like Trump, Netanyahu's primary goal is staying out of jail, and if he has to start/continue/expand a genocidal war to do it -- including to the West Bank and Lebanon -- that's what he's going to do. If it means giving power to the most extreme right-wing whackjobs and their horrifying agenda, he'll do that, too. Aside from the corruption charges, he's a bigger war criminal than Arik Sharon, and that's saying something. His career and his life should end in a prison cell. But there's still two years to go until mandatory elections, unless insh'allah the government falls in the interim.

[Burning Petard]

Donald Trump says he stopped $50 million for condoms going to Gaza. Is it true?

Wow! The government buys condoms for $0.03 each. That would have been 1.67 BILLION of those little single use balloons. Then he told us they were were gonna be used by Gaza to make bombs.

I have tried here to responsibly refrain from giving information about how to make bombs from consumer materials commonly available at Walgreens or Lowes. or WalMart. That kind of information has been out there since way back in the 1950's and the three-way war between Greece,, Turkey and Great Britain on the island of Cypress. And probably before that, but news reports from Cyprus then were very explicit about those terriorist devices. They were not called IED's, but that is what was used effectively.

So how do I turn a condum into a bomb?

snailgate.

[ex-khobar Andy]

So will we now have to show condoms at TSA checkpoints before we get on a plane?

[BoSoxGal]

Our monster is helping Israel's monster to purge the Palestinians entirely. Gaza will be like Miami Beach when they are done.