The Hammer

[liberty]

I was wondering, during the era of DEI, would a statue of Charles Martel erected in France be considered racist and xenophobic and torn down? Maybe you don’t know who Charles Martel was—he was a Frankish warlord who drove the Muslims out of France and saved Western Europe for Christianity. He was a brilliant military leader, but he was an individual of his time—very brutal, very vicious, and very successful. If someone wanted to erect a statue of him in a Muslim neighborhood as a statement of 'This is France,' would you consider it objectionable? There are already several statues of him across France.

If one stops and considers it, Charles Martel did not only save the Frankish Kingdom (France) and Western Europe but also the Western world. If not for his courage, skill, and abilities, we might be Muslim today, and we would not have the religious tolerance that we now enjoy; we should have statues of him in our countries as well, even in Dearborn, Michigan, to demonstrate to the Islamic residents there that they are now part of the Western world, where religious tolerance is expected.

[Bicycle Bill]

... and we would not have the religious tolerance that we now enjoy ...

Oy vey!!    It wasn't Muslims who killed six million people and displaced how many million more from 1933—1944, simply because they were Jews...

-"BB"-

[Burning Petard]

to address the question, How the hell should I know? This ain't France. The DEI controversy is about USofA society and its priorities here today. France has their own problems, carried over from their own days of world empire building. I am not sure ANY thing from the days of Charles Martel could carry over to the situations of today. In his day classification of homo sapiens into different groups had very different filters, Was someone and generations before them, who lived all their life independent of the Roman empire even accepted a human or 'people? Oh yes, your most vaunted western religious tolerance, Has someone from the Sephardic Jewish tradition or the Christian Orthodox of Bagdad inform you about Western religious tolerance.

Thank you Mr Liberty. You are a great reminder of the depth of historical knowledge carried around by ordinary Americans today. How easily you forgot ((f you were ever informed) about the seemingly endless wars in Europe about religious orthodoxy.

snailgate.

[liberty]

... and we would not have the religious tolerance that we now enjoy ...

Oy vey!!    It wasn't Muslims who killed six million people and displaced how many million more from 1933—1944, simply because they were Jews...

-"BB"-

What does that have to do with the history of the Western world and Charles Martel; and are you calling Hitler and the other Nazi leadership of the German Nazi Party Christians?

[liberty]

I am not aware of any conflict involving a statue of Charles Martel but considering the current era of tearing down historical statues that some view as oppressive, I was wondering if such a statue would be welcomed or tolerated in an Islamic community. From my perspective, Charles Martel's response to the invasion of Gaul, France, and Francia was entirely normal and expected for that time. However, his victory had a significant impact on the development of the Western world.

I'm unsure how Islamic communities would perceive this history—they might view him as an oppressor who prevented their people from occupying lands in Western Europe. Perhaps they would see a statue of him as a symbol that they should be pushed out. In any case, my opinion is that such a statue would merely serve as a statement that this is a Western world, and that if you are Muslim and a foreigner, you should assimilate.

After all, if it had not been for Charles Martel's victory at Tours, we in the West might be practicing Islamic honor killings ourselves. In this sense, his victory ensured that our women and girls are part of a historical narrative shaped by the winners

[Burning Petard]

From the mainstream Muslim point of view, a statue of ANYONE is a violation of the Allah given instruction to make no graven image. And yes, at the time of Hitler domination in Germany he very much did claim to be Christian. At the time the Pope even endorsed that view.

Dearborn as a Muslim Community? America the land of religious freedom? It was not Muslims who put 'restrictive covenants' on their land deeds forbidding sale to non Christians or non Whites. Those White, Christian only covenants were only 'recently' declared by our American courts to be unenforceable. The good freedom loving self-defined Christians of Texas are right now fighting in the courts to prevent a Muslim Mosque from being build in a suburb of Dallas.

snailgate.

[liberty]

How many churches are being built in Afghanistan? We don't have honor killings in this country—well, we probably do, but we don't know how many. The only reason this particular case was discovered is because the subjects were under FBI observation for suspected terrorist connections

Her murder took place at the Delor Park Apartments, in her family's residence.[21] Isa's boyfriend walked her home after the first day of her job. Initially, her parents criticized her for having the outside job and later stated a belief that she was doing something else instead of working. Zein Isa stabbed his daughter with a boning knife. One of her lungs, her liver, and her heart were severely damaged by six blows to her chest. Maria Isa assisted Zein by holding Tina.[22] FBI agents were not at the surveillance unit when the killing happened.[

In retrospect, prosecuting the parents for this murder might have been a tactical mistake. Who knows what could have been uncovered if the undercover investigation had continued

[liberty]

How many churches are being built in Afghanistan? We don't have honor killings in this country—well, we probably do, but we don't know how many. The only reason this particular case was discovered is because the subjects were under FBI observation for suspected terrorist connections

Her murder took place at the Delor Park Apartments, in her family's residence.[21] Isa's boyfriend walked her home after the first day of her job. Initially, her parents criticized her for having the outside job and later stated a belief that she was doing something else instead of working. Zein Isa stabbed his daughter with a boning knife. One of her lungs, her liver, and her heart were severely damaged by six blows to her chest. Maria Isa assisted Zein by holding Tina.[22] FBI agents were not at the surveillance unit when the killing happened.[

In retrospect, prosecuting the parents for this murder might have been a tactical mistake. Who knows what could have been uncovered if the undercover investigation had continued

[Big RR]

[quoteIn retrospect, prosecuting the parents for this murder might have been a tactical mistake. Who knows what could have been uncovered if the undercover investigation had continued][/quote]

Like what; more evidence of intolerance? You don't need the FBI to find that--and it's not confined to the moslem community or even people who claim to be religious.

[Burning Petard]

Who knows? Why God knows of course and it is all part of Gods great and loving plan. I guess even the divine plan includes a little collateral damage, like Ann Frank and six million other Jews (God's favorite people after all) Don't forget the gypsies, homosexuals and other undesirables that were part of the holocaust.

snailgate.

[Big RR]

God knows of course and it is all part of Gods great and loving plan.

That's the tough part, to reconcile a "great and loving plan" with he Holocaust, or the Crusades. Or the Inquisition. Or...

It is up to each of us to achieve that reconciliation as best we can; personally, I see these things as proof of what happens when we ignore god's teachings, however much we profess to be following them, but your opinion may differ. But IMHO, there is no end to the depravities which people will occasion when left to their own devices. We know what we should be doing, and make excuses or rationalizations as to why we do not.

[Burning Petard]

BiggRR, I agree with you on all of that. snailgate

[MajGenl.Meade]

That's the tough part, to reconcile a "great and loving plan" with he Holocaust, or the Crusades. Or the Inquisition. Or...

Thanks for the post. Agreed. Another sadness is that "the humanist belief in the inherent worth and dignity of individuals" fits just as easily as a "great and loving plan".

[Big RR]

Indeed,

[liberty]

error

[liberty]

error

[liberty]

[quoteIn retrospect, prosecuting the parents for this murder might have been a tactical mistake. Who knows what could have been uncovered if the undercover investigation had continued]

Like what; more evidence of intolerance? You don't need the FBI to find that--and it's not confined to the moslem community or even people who claim to be religious.

No, it’s likely there were more terrorist connections. Moreover, who knows where they might have gone? Besides, it was not a federal crime. In the end, it would've made no difference if they had been prosecuted then or five years later. They only had one daughter, so they weren't likely to kill another.

This was an honor killing, as Tina's parents disapproved of her lifestyle choices, including her part-time job and relationship with an American boyfriend. Both parents were convicted of first-degree murder. Zein Isa died in prison in 1997, and Maria Isa's death sentence was later commuted to life imprisonment.

Their time in prison did not contribute to the struggle against terrorism or improve national security. Instead of going to prison, they could have been turned into American assets. Or do you not believe that national security takes precedence over everything?

[Big RR]

Or do you not believe that national security takes precedence over everything?

Everything? Absolutely not, Number one, because the claim of national security is the claim of every despot and scoundrel. Number 2, I think individual rights take precedence over national security because without those rights, what are we trying to secure? As Ben Franklin is reputed to have said, those who give up liberty in the b name of security deserve neither.

And FWIW, many other things can and do take precedence over national security.

[Big RR]

Instead of going to prison, they could have been turned into American assets.

Or not; why do you assume they had ties to/knowledge of terrorist organizations? Because of their ethnicity or religion? Or because they were supposedly under FBI surveillance (albeit not that high a priority surveillance since they neither saw the murder or tried to take the parties into custody afterwards; if there were any real evidence or terroristic ties, the agencies might well have cooperated--that they did not makes me think your claism is completely unfounded).

And, FWIW, I don't see all white people, even those who are members of right wing fundamentalist christian churches, as neo nazis or having ties to white supremacy groups. And I don't even see all white supremacy groups, however repugnant their beliefs are, as terroristic or violent. I am willing to give moslems and those of middle eastern/asian descent the same consideration and not lump them all as terrorists. Part of the free speech rights included in the rights I mentioned above. But the terrorist behind every telephone pole (akin to the red menace in the 50s), is a prett easy way to dispense with those rights.

[Sue U]

I was wondering, during the era of DEI, would a statue of Charles Martel erected in France be considered racist and xenophobic and torn down? Maybe you don’t know who Charles Martel was—he was a Frankish warlord who drove the Muslims out of France and saved Western Europe for Christianity. He was a brilliant military leader, but he was an individual of his time—very brutal, very vicious, and very successful. If someone wanted to erect a statue of him in a Muslim neighborhood as a statement of 'This is France,' would you consider it objectionable? There are already several statues of him across France.

If one stops and considers it, Charles Martel did not only save the Frankish Kingdom (France) and Western Europe but also the Western world. If not for his courage, skill, and abilities, we might be Muslim today, and we would not have the religious tolerance that we now enjoy; we should have statues of him in our countries as well, even in Dearborn, Michigan, to demonstrate to the Islamic residents there that they are now part of the Western world, where religious tolerance is expected.

The OP here is a veritable turducken of historical ignorance wrapped in magical thinking with a steaming core of retconned bullshit. Charles Martel did not "save France" "for Christianity." There was no such thing as France, no concept of a "Western Europe" let alone a nation-state, and the Franks were one of a number of pagan Germanic peoples who themselves had invaded Gaul and were kept at bay by the Romans. With the collapse of the Western Roman Empire, Europe was a collection of barbarian kingdoms and duchies constantly warring amongst themselves; their adoption of Christianity was still tenuous and politically expedient at best. By the time Charles Martel came around, Europe was firmly in the Dark Ages -- except for al-Andalus, which was a cosmopolitan center of commerce, art, science and philosophy that included Muslims, Christians and Jews in a highly integrated society: Islam was still brand new (Muhammad had died only 100 years earlier) and the Umayyad caliphate in Iberia ruled over a large and very diverse population, necessitating tolerance and inclusion if for no other reason than to avoid internal revolt. Had the Ummah conquered Europe in those early days, we might have been spared a millennium of the Christians' crusades, religious wars, inquisitions, pogroms and witch trials, and Europeans might have had a chance to flourish under an enlightened government rather than wallow in tribalism, superstition and violence.