San Francisco Cops Shooting Mario Woods...

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Lord Jim
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Re: San Francisco Cops Shooting Mario Woods...

Post by Lord Jim »

rubato wrote:The officer moved into his direction of travel, he was trying to get away with limited routes open to him.
Rube I agree with you on that, but given the fact that he had already attacked a person with the weapon he was refusing to drop, it would have been irresponsible for the police not to cut off his escape route...

Also, this was not a case of the cops showing up, and then suddenly moving to the use of lethal force:
Woods was fatally shot in the Bayview neighborhood Dec. 2 after at least five officers surrounded him in connection with an earlier nonfatal stabbing. Police said that he was armed with a kitchen knife used in the stabbing and that officers had no choice but to shoot him when he refused to drop the weapon despite attempts to disarm him with beanbag rounds [those two shots you hear earlier in the video were the bean bag rounds; the first one had a little affect; the second none at all...perhaps if they'd been equiped with 5 or 6 bean bag rounds that would have brought him down, but they weren't] and pepper spray.
http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Stu ... 687494.php

I also wondered why they didn't try tasing him; the reason is because SF police are not equipped with tasers; not because of budgetary constraints, but for PC reasons:
Stun-gun debate heats up as S.F. Police Chief Suhr renews request

Even in the wake of the fatal police shooting of Mario Woods, little has changed in the heated debate over equipping San Francisco officers with electric stun guns since the last proposal was shelved more than two years ago.

In a meeting that went late into the night Wednesday, the Police Commission set a date to have a draft for improving the department’s use-of-force policy, which will include discussion of Chief Greg Suhr’s push to arm officers with stun guns, following the public outcry over Woods’ death.

Suhr and the police union counter that officers need every possible tool available to resolve an incident like the one that led to Woods’ death — and that the community deserves a police force with more options than lethal force.

http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Stu ... 687494.php
So, the cops had exhausted all the non-potentially lethal options available to them, and clearly they couldn't just let this guy go on his merry way...

But all of that having been said, let me make very clear:

That all justifies, (as BSG suggested) maybe one or two shots to be fired...

But it does NOT justify five cops going Melvin Purvis versus John Dillinger on the guy, firing 20 rounds in what looks like the police equivalent of a "feeding frenzy".... :?
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Joe Guy
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Re: San Francisco Cops Shooting Mario Woods...

Post by Joe Guy »

If the cops had shot as many bean bags at him as they did bullets, he would be in custody instead of being dead.

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Lord Jim
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Re: San Francisco Cops Shooting Mario Woods...

Post by Lord Jim »

Joe Guy wrote:If the cops had shot as many bean bags at him as they did bullets, he would be in custody instead of being dead.
Given the effect that the first bean bag shot had, (the second fired later appeared to have no effect; perhaps it missed) if five or six more had been fired in rapid succession, he more than likely would have dropped the knife and fallen, and still be alive...
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Jarlaxle
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Re: San Francisco Cops Shooting Mario Woods...

Post by Jarlaxle »

Maybe it's time to require police officers to carry single-action revolvers...that would greatly reduce "spray and pray".
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dales
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Re: San Francisco Cops Shooting Mario Woods...

Post by dales »

Jarlaxle wrote:Maybe it's time to require police officers to carry single-action revolvers...that would greatly reduce "spray and pray".

Brilliant!

H#ll why not issue all LEO's pea shooters, instead? :nana

Your collective inability to acknowledge this obvious truth makes you all look like fools.


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Joe Guy
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Re: San Francisco Cops Shooting Mario Woods...

Post by Joe Guy »

dales wrote: Brilliant!

H#ll why not issue all LEO's pea shooters, instead? :nana
Isn't that how they shoot the bean bags?.... :mrgreen:

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BoSoxGal
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Re: San Francisco Cops Shooting Mario Woods...

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Lord Jim wrote:
Joe Guy wrote:If the cops had shot as many bean bags at him as they did bullets, he would be in custody instead of being dead.
Given the effect that the first bean bag shot had, (the second fired later appeared to have no effect; perhaps it missed) if five or six more had been fired in rapid succession, he more than likely would have dropped the knife and fallen, and still be alive...
Yes, this. How exactly do you think UK police apprehend without even having guns? This. We can do it, too.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
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Lord Jim
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Re: San Francisco Cops Shooting Mario Woods...

Post by Lord Jim »

I'll stipulate that this fellow's behavior was stupid...

I don't know about you, but if I'm standing with my back to a wall with five cops with their guns drawn on me, I'm going to drop to my knees with my hands in the air yelling "please don't shoot! I surrender!"...."

But the police are supposed to be able to deal with even really stupid people without killing them, if there are reasonable alternatives available...
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Re: San Francisco Cops Shooting Mario Woods...

Post by MG McAnick »

Lord Jim wrote:I don't know about you, but if I'm standing with my back to a wall with five cops with their guns drawn on me, I'm going to drop to my knees with my hands in the air yelling "please don't shoot! I surrender!"...."
Do you think that would have mattered LJ? We're talking cops here, the same guys who were the bullies in Jr and High School, legitimized by a badge.

I've never filled one out, but I've been told that the first question on the local police department's application for employment is "Are you an A**hole"? If that is answered "no" the second one is "Can you learn". The third question is "Are you stupid"?

Unfortunately there is no cure for stupid, so those who answer yes to the first and third questions are automatically given a slot at the local Police Academy. Those who successively answer no and yes to the first pair are given remedial training before going to the academy if they answer yes to the third.
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Lord Jim
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Re: San Francisco Cops Shooting Mario Woods...

Post by Lord Jim »

Do you think that would have mattered LJ?
Oh absolutely I believe that would have mattered MG...

Unlike some, I do not believe we are a nation awash in "dirty cops"...

I've said it before, and I'll say it again:

The vast majority of police officers, the vast majority of the time, perform their duties with exemplary professionalism...(the statistics back me up on this; I'm happy to repost them)

The problem is that we have a system that doesn't allow us to get rid of the relatively small percentage of cops (not just a "few bad apples"... I'll concede that it's more than just a "few"...It's an unacceptably high number, but still a small percentage...) who are racking up a hugely disproportionate number of offenses... (I posted this about a month ago, but since you weren't on the board at that time, I'll repost it for your review)
Lord Jim wrote:There seems to be a lot of evidence to support my view:
Study Finds Majority of Police Abuse Cases Involve Same Small Group Of Officers

There is an interesting study out that a relatively small number of officers are responsible for over half of police abuse claims. We have seen similar results in studies of malpractice cases of doctors. Yet, this small group of officers not only tarnish the reputations of all officers but cost massive amounts of money. Marketplace reports that Chicago paid out more than half a billion dollars over 10 years in police misconduct cases. This is a city that is facing junk bond status and the threat of insolvency.

Law professor Craig Futterman, who runs the University of Chicago’s Civil Rights and Police Accountability Project, has done some interesting work in this area. His study of the Chicago Police Department found the same officers fueling these costs. It suggests that a better job of self-policing could result in substantial savings for police departments and more importantly greater protection for citizens.

UCLA law professor Joanna Schwartz has found similar results. She notes however that most cities still resist keeping records that would help identify such officers and track patterns.[That's inexcusable.] This would seem to offer obvious areas of reform for departments. We have certainly seen anecdotally that officers involved in controversies often seem to have checkered histories of prior lawsuits or serious complaints. The problem is the political will to implement the academic findings.
http://jonathanturley.org/2015/03/18/th ... -officers/



5 percent of arresting NYPD officers make 40 percent of all resisting arrest charges


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A shocking 72 percent of all resisting arrest charges are brought by only 15 percent of the NYPD. Resisting arrest is a charge that is often used to cover the use of excessive force by police. Why else would Darvell Elliot have wound up in a hospital bed after he had been handcuffed by Officer Donald Sadowy outside of Elliot's Brownsville home? In a case of mistaken identity (all black men look the same to some police officers) the police stopped him because a black man had stolen an iPod and cellphone in the area. He claims that once they handcuffed him, they tripped him and beat him. The picture his lawyer provided WNYC appears to back up his complaint.

The NYPD has used computer software for years to track crime in its jurisdiction. But apparently it hasn't taken advantage of data to deal with abusive cops. According to WNYC, one officer, Donald Sadowy, has been sued for excessive force 10 times in just over two years. :roll:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/12/0 ... st-charges
Last edited by Lord Jim on Sun Dec 13, 2015 8:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Lord Jim
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Re: San Francisco Cops Shooting Mario Woods...

Post by Lord Jim »

As I correctly observed (as I generally do 8-) ) at the time:
Lord Jim wrote:The biggest "institutional" problem I see is an institutionalized inability to get rid of bad cops...

It's a problem all over the country; there is either an unwillingness or an inability to get rid of cops that have wracked up numerous lawsuits, suspensions, etc., and instead allowing them to stay on the street with their badges and their guns...

There is no single action that could be taken that will reduce the amount of abuse of police power anywhere nearly as effectively as getting rid of that relatively small percentage that are piling up a vastly disproportionate number of complaints and disciplinary action.

It's basic math...
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Re: San Francisco Cops Shooting Mario Woods...

Post by MG McAnick »

We may not have a nation AWASH in dirty cops LJ, but we certainly have a lot of departments with more than the 5% that bring 40% of the resisting charges against those who are innocent until proven guilty. I see it in both small town and larger metro forces in my area. The small town cops are even worse than the big city guys. Most of the small town cops are small town cops because they answered the first question wrong on the big city's application.
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Re: San Francisco Cops Shooting Mario Woods...

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^Agreed
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

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Re: San Francisco Cops Shooting Mario Woods...

Post by Econoline »

Lord Jim wrote:I've said it before, and I'll say it again:

The vast majority of police officers, the vast majority of the time, perform their duties with exemplary professionalism...(the statistics back me up on this; I'm happy to repost them)
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: "exemplary professionalism" would include the cops NOT involved in misconduct refusing to put up with the minority who ARE.

Get back to us when that happens...
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Re: San Francisco Cops Shooting Mario Woods...

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bigskygal wrote:^Agreed
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
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Re: San Francisco Cops Shooting Mario Woods...

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Many just can't. It is an instant career-killer, and can be incredibly dangerous. It is little different than informing on the Mafia.
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BoSoxGal
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Re: San Francisco Cops Shooting Mario Woods...

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Sure, just ask Frank Serpico.

But still, things HAVE to change.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
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Guinevere
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Re: San Francisco Cops Shooting Mario Woods...

Post by Guinevere »

The whole point of civil service and the process and the privileges (including a property interest in your job) is for exactly that point. You cannot and should not be penalized for speaking out about any misconduct.
“I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.” ~ Ruth Bader Ginsburg, paraphrasing Sarah Moore Grimké

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Re: San Francisco Cops Shooting Mario Woods...

Post by oldr_n_wsr »

Got major cop "to do" here on Long Island. Suffolk county police department to be exact. Seems the top dog (ex sufflok county police chief, resigned a few months ago) has been arrested (bail denied) for beating a suspect who stole a gun belt and duffel bag from his SUV. He went and cleared the interogation room and beat the guy, only stopping when one of the officers came into the room and stopped him. Then he had the detectives and such assist in covering it all up. Even went so far as to threaten the perp (an addict at the time) with a "hot shot" if he ever told about the beating. There are a few more things he did concerning the case but they escape me.

I believe the feds are involved also.

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Re: San Francisco Cops Shooting Mario Woods...

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The DOJ should just establish a new division for the sole purpose of investigation and prosecution of police misconduct, and start investigating every major police department in the country.
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