Brexit suspended - gun violence in the UK

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Lord Jim
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Re: Brexit suspended - gun violence in the UK

Post by Lord Jim »

"It is cruel and terrible that her life was cut short by a violent act of political intolerance."
Do you have the link to where she is supposed to have said that?

Don't bother, she did say it:
Clinton condemns attack on British MP as 'a violent act of political intolerance'

Details of the nature of the attack and the suspect are still emerging, but initial reports said that Cox, an MP for the Labour Party known for her advocacy on behalf of refugees, was shot and stabbed at a constituency meeting in West Yorkshire. Police are investigating reports that suggest the suspect, who shouted "Britain First!" at the scene, is connected to the right-wing anti-immigrant organization "Britain First." The apparent assassination comes at a fraught political time in the UK, which is holding a referendum next week on whether to remain in the European Union.

Presumptive Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton expressed her condolences in a statement, calling the attack "a violent act of political intolerance." [with absolutely no substantive knowledge of what took place or why]

Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2016/06/g ... z4Bo3SUxz1
Follow us: @politico on Twitter | Politico on Facebook
This is an excellent example of why my decision to vote for Hillary represents choosing the despicable over the unthinkable...
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Bicycle Bill
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Re: Brexit suspended - gun violence in the UK

Post by Bicycle Bill »

Just wait, LJ — we haven't heard from Mr. Drumpf yet.  I'd make book on the fact that he will say something even more outrageous.
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Lord Jim
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Re: Brexit suspended - gun violence in the UK

Post by Lord Jim »

I'd make book on the fact that he will say something even more outrageous.
I wouldn't be a bit surprised...(In fact I'd be surprised if that didn't happen...)

I have every confidence that Mr. Unthinkable will out-do Ms. Despicable...

Afterall, up to now, he's managed to do it every time...

No reason to think he'll break his streak....
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Re: Brexit suspended - gun violence in the UK

Post by Daisy »

Gob wrote:Many remain supporters are saying "oh well he must be a leave supporter and a hard right fascist."

Not "he was a mentally ill man"

A few of my clients believed the CIA is controlling them, if they do something wrong should we blame the CIA?
With all due respect Gob

He was a hard right supporter, and it's not a stretch to say that the appeal of the kind of rhetoric spouted by the leave campaign (who have focussed on migration as their main topic) to a mentally vulnerable person might well embolden them to act the way this man has.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... oup-claims

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Re: Brexit suspended - gun violence in the UK

Post by Sue U »

Well said in The Guardian (and noting the U.S parallels):
If you inject enough poison into the political bloodstream, somebody will get sick

Jonathan Freedland

For weeks, months and years “politician” has been a word more spat out than said. MPs have been depicted as a form of pond life, routinely placed on the lowest rung of the ladder of esteem, trusted less than estate agents and journalists, the butt of every panel show gag, casually assumed to be venal, mendacious, vain, stupid or malevolent.

“They’re all as bad as each other,” we say. “They’re only in it for themselves.” “You can’t believe a word they say.” These complaints are repeated so often, we barely notice them. They’re like moans about the weather, presumed to warrant no disagreement.

But then we are confronted with the fate, and the life, of Jo Cox. We learn that she was a devoted mother of two young children. We see the pictures of her putting shoes on her daughter’s tiny feet. We hear that she fizzed with energy and commitment to those suffering, far away and closer to home. We learn that her friends loved her and hear them break down as they remember her. We see that she burned with a fierce idealism, that she was devoted to her home town of Batley, that she wanted to make life better for people other than herself.

And none of that quite fits with what we thought “politician” meant. Yet the funny thing is, this is what most of them are actually like. It’s the dirty little secret of political life: that, yes, there are some politicians who are all about ego and vanity and hogging the camera; but there are countless more who get and seek little public attention, who toil away, knocking on doors, fielding complaints about broken drains and noisy neighbours, who work daytimes, evenings and weekends, and who are rewarded by little thanks – and often a downpour of abuse.

What accounts for this loathing of our elected public servants, the men and women we have chosen to represent us? Some of it they bring upon themselves, to be sure – and there’s no denying that the standing of MPs plummeted after the expenses affair of 2009 (though they were hardly revered before then).

The media have certainly played their part. Think of the interviews conducted as if every politician belongs automatically in the dock, interrogations that proceed on a premise famously cited by Jeremy Paxman: why is this lying bastard lying to me?

Social media has intensified this hostility and made it even more sharply personal. The abuse directed at women – whether elected politicians or not – who dare to voice an opinion in public, the threats of rape and murder: all of it has further polluted the atmosphere.
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We don’t yet know what was in the mind of the man who killed Jo Cox. Latest reports suggest the suspect in the case had links to a neo-Nazi, white supremacist group in the US. But even if we cannot locate a specific cause in the nation’s political debate and claim this murder as its direct effect, we can say this: that if you inject enough poison into the political bloodstream, eventually somebody will get sick.

In the early 1990s I watched as it became a staple of US debate that all America’s woes were the fault of the federal government. On the right, it became incontestable to blame “government bureaucrats” for any and every problem. On talk radio – the social media of that era – “government bureaucrats” were assailed daily as the enemy, worthy only of contempt. And then, on 19 April 1995, Timothy McVeigh planted a bomb in a building in Oklahoma City filled with government bureaucrats, and killed 168 people. Perhaps McVeigh was mentally unstable, but that hardly weakens the point: even the mentally unstable hear the conversation around them.

And how has our national conversation sounded in recent weeks? As it happens, before Jo Cox was so brutally murdered I had a plan for the column I would write today. Its headline was to be “Behold the demons we have unleashed”. It was to convey my deep anxiety about the darker loathings stirred by the debate over next week’s EU referendum.

It would have cited the violence in France involving English football fans, who chanted the usual anti-French and anti-German songs but also “Fuck off, Europe – we’re all voting out”.

It would have mentioned the incident, witnessed by a Financial Times correspondent, in which England fans threw coins at child beggars in the streets, enjoying the children’s humiliation as they bent down to pick them up. The same fans made one seven-year-old boy down a bottle of beer to earn his reward.

You could say those fans would always have behaved that way. But none of us is an island. We take our cues from the signals around us. And the recent signals have included a loathing of the European Union and a resistance to immigration that is clearly heard by many as nothing more than hostility to foreigners.

The poster Nigel Farage unveiled on Thursday morning turned that dog-whistle into a foghorn: under the phrase “Breaking Point”, it showed a snaking queue of conspicuously dark men, suggesting these were EU migrants descending on Britain. (In fact they were Syrian refugees arriving in Slovenia, with no chance of getting anywhere near Britain.) It was unambiguously racist.

And throughout this campaign, there has been a drumbeat denouncing “the Westminster elite”, castigating all politicians, along with anyone in authority or in a public position of expertise, as either a liar or the corrupt dupe of a wicked Brussels conspiracy.

Perhaps this had nothing to do with the cruelty that deprived two children of their mother yesterday. Maybe it’s a coincidence that the killer struck at this moment. Maybe it’s a coincidence that he targeted an MP who was a passionate advocate of remaining inside the EU, and whose signature issue had been a campaign to admit Syrians in desperate need of refuge.

Maybe it’s a coincidence that she was a member of a political class that has been reviled for years and with heightened fervour in recent weeks. Maybe it’s a coincidence that she was an advocate for a position depicted by its most fevered opponents as unpatriotic and verging on treason.

We don’t yet know. But what we do know is that this campaign has torn away at a fabric that took years to weave, one that ensured we could argue with each other without challenging the basic legitimacy of our opponents, one that had grown to accept diversity as a strength rather than a threat to be feared, one that allowed us to keep calm and civil even when we disagreed passionately.

Whatever happens next Thursday, it will take time to repair that fabric. But repair it we must. For what we have learned this week is that the veil that separates civilisation from mayhem is thin. The tragedy is that it took the death of a devoted, admired and adored woman to teach us that lesson.
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GAH!

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Guinevere
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Re: Brexit suspended - gun violence in the UK

Post by Guinevere »

As I said on Monday:
Guinevere wrote:The crazy Christian Right vilified Planned Parenthood, and that was followed by a shooting at a Planned Parenthood clinic. The crazy Christian Right vilified GBLT and the bathroom issue, and there was a shooting of a GLBT club. The lines are not that difficult to connect.
This is exactly why the head Trumpanzee is so damn dangerous. Not his bluster and ignorance, but his outright undisguised hate, and the pride he takes in being so hateful.
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Gob
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Re: Brexit suspended - gun violence in the UK

Post by Gob »

Daisy wrote:
With all due respect Gob

He was a hard right supporter, and it's not a stretch to say that the appeal of the kind of rhetoric spouted by the leave campaign (who have focussed on migration as their main topic) to a mentally vulnerable person might well embolden them to act the way this man has.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... oup-claims
Don't worry Daisy, we know each other well enough to disagree. ;-)

Believe me, people who are acutely ill enough to act in the way this man did do not need external inspiration, the voices in their heads and their delusional systems are enough.

The rhetoric of the Remain campaign has been equally virulent too, maybe all the taunts that he must be a "xenophobic, racist, stupid person," drove him over the edge.
In the last few weeks of the campaign the rhetoric has ramped up and the blame game started. If we leave the EU it will be the fault of the “stupid”, “ignorant”, and “racist” working class. Whenever working-class people have tried to talk about the effects of immigration on their lives, shouting “backward” and “racist” has become a middle-class pastime.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... referendum
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Re: Brexit suspended - gun violence in the UK

Post by Burning Petard »

Amen Guin.

(((((snailgate)))))

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Lord Jim
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Re: Brexit suspended - gun violence in the UK

Post by Lord Jim »

With all due respect ...
Oh, not that one Daze...

"With all due respect" is the line people use when the next thing they plan to say is, "you're full of shit"...

(but perhaps in a more diplomatic way... 8-) )

"With all due respect" is the rhetorical twin sister to, "I'm not defending so-and-so or thus-and -such..."

(Declarations which are invariably immediately followed by full throated defenses of so-and-so or thus-and-such)
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Re: Brexit suspended - gun violence in the UK

Post by Gob »

Lord Jim wrote:
With all due respect ...
Oh, not that one Daze...

"With all due respect" is the line people use when the next thing they plan to say is, "you're full of shit"...

(but perhaps in a more diplomatic way... 8-) )

"With all due respect" is the rhetorical twin sister to, "I'm not defending so-and-so or thus-and -such..."

(Declarations which are invariably immediately followed by full throated defenses of so-and-so or thus-and-such)
:lol: Me and Daze are sweet, we understand each other. Even if her views on the EU are wrong. :lol:
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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Re: Brexit suspended - gun violence in the UK

Post by Lord Jim »

I'm very fond of our Daze as well...(despite the fact that she's a right Bolshie... 8-) )
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Re: Brexit suspended - gun violence in the UK

Post by Gob »

Funny isn't it, how tarring all Muslims as "extremists" due to the actions of a few is wrong. But tarring a whole political movement due to the actions of one clearly schizophrenic man is fine?
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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Lord Jim
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Re: Brexit suspended - gun violence in the UK

Post by Lord Jim »

Yeah, it is funny how that works... :?

But I suspect that at the end of the day next week, it isn't going to matter...
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Re: Brexit suspended - gun violence in the UK

Post by Daisy »

I'm going to use this one now....

In all fairness Gob :D whilst you have a vote in the referendum, you are only seeing what's going on here from the outside.

The conversations I am involved in and overhear are truly some of the most awful nationalistic nonsense. You have Farage and his Nazi Style poster campaign showing refugees, you have the official leave campaign telling us that millions of Turkish are going to arrive on our doorstep next week demanding jobs and healthcare. They are scraping the bottom of the barrel when it comes to finding real arguments outside migration.

Mr Mair was at westminster magistrates this morning (probably wouldn't be in there if defence and police psychologists had thought his mental health was an issue) and when asked his name he replied his name was "Death to traitors, freedom for Britain" He was also photographed participating in a Britain First "protest" in Dewsbury recently.

I don't think all Brexiters are racists, but I do think all racists are Brexiters.

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Re: Brexit suspended - gun violence in the UK

Post by Guinevere »

Certainly that Brexit movie, which both my Swede and I suffered through, was full of racist crap. It seems obvious that is one element the Brexit folks are pandering to.

And let's face it, Nationalism is often the refuge of the racist in an attempt to give that racist view legitimacy. See e.g., Donald Trump and others.
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Re: Brexit suspended - gun violence in the UK

Post by Guinevere »

From yesterday's NYT: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/17/opini ... c=rss&_r=0

Britain’s moment of truth is fast approaching. Next Thursday, the country will vote on whether to remain in or to leave the European Union. The referendum has generated a torrent of analyses, commentaries and appeals — including President Obama’s urging Britain to stay in. Most serious studies have concluded that Britain would be economically and politically damaged by “Brexit,” a British exit from the E.U.

And yet the chorus of disgruntled voters convinced that bureaucrats in Brussels are threatening their identity, sovereignty and values, and also packing their island with foreigners, is growing by the day. This British version of “make America great again” is every bit as illusory as Donald Trump’s slogan — and just as potentially dangerous, for Britain and for its European and North American partners. The campaign has generated powerful emotions. On Thursday, after the shooting death of Jo Cox, a Labour Party politician who has been a strong voice for staying in the union, both sides suspended all campaigning.

There will be concrete consequences for Britain if it severs itself from the union. It would lose tariff-free access to its largest trading market, or be forced to make big concessions. It would have to negotiate its own trade pacts with other nations, and would have much less bargaining heft. The anti-union crowd promises that freedom from E.U. regulation will bring economic gains, but Britons will have to write their own protections, in areas from the environment to banking.

There is no argument that the European Union is a flawed institution. Its dysfunction has been on display in its fitful handling of the Greek debt and refugee crises, its bureaucracy is pathetically slow to recognize or correct its failings and it often acts like an out-of-touch and undemocratic elite. Part of that is the inherent inefficiency of an institution of 28 member states with big differences in size, wealth and democratic traditions, and which participate to different degrees in the single currency and border-free zone.

Yet the E.U. is an extraordinary achievement, a voluntary union of nations whose histories include some of the bloodiest wars ever waged. However flawed the bloc, it has replaced blood feuds with a single market, shared values, free travel and labor mobility. Britain has always been something of an outlier in the E.U., joining what began as the European Coal and Steel Community two decades after it was formed and declining to participate in either the euro currency or the borderless Schengen zone. Yet there is no question that Britain has benefited from membership, both economically and as a strong voice in shaping E.U. policy.

The euroskepticism that has led to the British referendum, and that forms a strong component of the right-wing nationalist parties on the rise in many European countries, is not about efficiency or history. It is about ill-defined frustration with the complexities of a changing world and a changing Europe, a loss of faith in mainstream politicians and experts, a nostalgia for a past when nations decided their own fates and kept foreigners out. To those who hold these views, the European Union is the epitome of all that has gone wrong, an alien bureaucracy deaf to the traditions and values of its members. Not surprisingly, Mr. Trump and the French politician Marine Le Pen both favor Brexit.

But there is no turning back the clock, and an exit could create new problems at home — like a Scotland that would want to go ahead and break with Britain in order to stay in the E.U. And apart from the financial chaos and damage it would do to Britain, a vote to leave would encourage euroskeptics across the Continent, putting the entire European project at risk. Britain’s exit, in short, would be a disaster.

To the skeptics, though, President Obama, the International Monetary Fund, the German government and all the others who have argued against a departure are only the predictable voices of the global order they want to escape. The hope at this stage rests on the Britons who understand what is at stake. Every one of their votes is critical next Thursday.
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Lord Jim
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Re: Brexit suspended - gun violence in the UK

Post by Lord Jim »

I don't think all Brexiters are racists
That's good because that would be false. Everything I've seen indicates that this is an issue that cuts across party lines and traditional ideological lines.

The Chairman of the Leave campaign is a Labour MP, and many of the spokes people for the campaign are also Labourites. The attempt by some (though not you) to portray all Leave supporters as mouth breathing, knuckle dragging racists, is intellectually dishonest in the extreme, and insulting to the British people.

This is going to be a very close vote, nearly divided down the middle. There is no way that 50% or more of Brits are racists.


ETA:
when asked his name he replied his name was "Death to traitors, freedom for Britain"
Yessir, no mental health issues there... 8-)
Mr. Trump and the French politician Marine Le Pen both favor Brexit.
Just because Trump and/or Le Pen support something doesn't automatically make it a bad idea...

I'll admit it's probably a pretty good general rule, but it's not 100% 8-) (Hell, even Bernie Sanders manages to say something sensible every now and then...)
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Re: Brexit suspended - gun violence in the UK

Post by Daisy »

I'm not going to let the Biffers, The EDL, the BNP and all those other nationalist groups off the hook for this.

I know plenty of "loners with mental health issues" that would never dream of doing what he did.

It's been easy to write off those groups and their members as a bunch of cockwombling keyboard warriors, but their vile words have led to this.

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Re: Brexit suspended - gun violence in the UK

Post by BoSoxGal »

Lord Jim wrote:
With all due respect ...
Oh, not that one Daze...

"With all due respect" is the line people use when the next thing they plan to say is, "you're full of shit"...

(but perhaps in a more diplomatic way... 8-) )

"With all due respect" is the rhetorical twin sister to, "I'm not defending so-and-so or thus-and -such..."

(Declarations which are invariably immediately followed by full throated defenses of so-and-so or thus-and-such)
I'll call bullshit on this one because I actually argued this point with an idiot judge in rural Montana. 'With all due respect' is a formal preface to arguing an opposing point that is utilized by the solicitor general and all counsel before the SCOTUS and also is common in UK courts. It's also taught as good manners by most English grandmothers; it was by mine, anyway!
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Re: Brexit suspended - gun violence in the UK

Post by Crackpot »

Tone has a lot to do with it. Tone is what suggests how much respect is due. As such it doesn't work very
Well if you can't tell if the tone is deferential or condescending.
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

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