Sexual Harassment
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ex-khobar Andy
- Posts: 5769
- Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2015 4:16 am
- Location: Louisville KY as of July 2018
Re: Sexual Harassment
Not sure about a pass (interesting choice of word) but at least he apologized right away. I think there is a subtext for most of us older guys who are terrified of growing old and being despised. We have all heard stories about the elderly father with dementia who makes a pass at his own daughter: and while I accept that there is a real possibility that I will slobber my food in an unpleasant manner and become unlovely, I cannot bear the thought that I might lose my capabilities so much that I become unloveable.
Re: Sexual Harassment
He apologized right away? Apparently you didn’t read the article I linked, which details how he’s been grabbing asses for years. Did he EVER ONCE ask permission?!
The whole fucking point is that someone else’s body isn’t yours to touch, absent a crystal clear invitation. YES it is CRIMINAL to touch a person’s body - ANY PART - unwanted. Unwanted touching is the legal definition of assault and sexual assault generally encompasses any touching of a sexual nature whether to gratify oneself or in attempt to gratify the person being assaulted.
Does anyone here believe President Bush ever pats the bottoms of men and tells his cop a feel joke?
It is the height of stupidity to suggest that his behavior was okay before he was ever told it was wrong. He fucking nominated Clarence Thomas! The notion that a woman is required to confront a former president or else she’s welcoming his groping is OUTFUCKINGRAGEOUS.
I’m disgusted by some of you - truly.
The whole fucking point is that someone else’s body isn’t yours to touch, absent a crystal clear invitation. YES it is CRIMINAL to touch a person’s body - ANY PART - unwanted. Unwanted touching is the legal definition of assault and sexual assault generally encompasses any touching of a sexual nature whether to gratify oneself or in attempt to gratify the person being assaulted.
Does anyone here believe President Bush ever pats the bottoms of men and tells his cop a feel joke?
It is the height of stupidity to suggest that his behavior was okay before he was ever told it was wrong. He fucking nominated Clarence Thomas! The notion that a woman is required to confront a former president or else she’s welcoming his groping is OUTFUCKINGRAGEOUS.
I’m disgusted by some of you - truly.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan
~ Carl Sagan
Re: Sexual Harassment
The boundaries for acceptable behavior are not as obvious as you say. If no one had said anything to him before then cannot be faulted for not knowing it. The Hmong people have gotten in trouble here in the U.S. because in their culture it is acceptable to pat a male child on his genitals. It is not thought to be sexual. Just as the butt-patting of football and baseball players is not thought to be sexual.
And you should consider the fact that someone who admits the act immediately and apologizes is in a different moral universe than someone who stonewalls and lies like Trump and O'Reilly.
A good person is not someone who never does anything wrong. A good person is one who admits the truth of the matter and apologizes.
Further punishment of GHW Bush is overkill.
yrs,
rubato
And you should consider the fact that someone who admits the act immediately and apologizes is in a different moral universe than someone who stonewalls and lies like Trump and O'Reilly.
A good person is not someone who never does anything wrong. A good person is one who admits the truth of the matter and apologizes.
Further punishment of GHW Bush is overkill.
yrs,
rubato
Re: Sexual Harassment
Who said Bush's behavior was okay? Do you think what he did is comparable to what Clarence Thomas was accused of doing?BoSoxGal wrote:It is the height of stupidity to suggest that his behavior was okay before he was ever told it was wrong. He fucking nominated Clarence Thomas! The notion that a woman is required to confront a former president or else she’s welcoming his groping is OUTFUCKINGRAGEOUS.
I’m disgusted by some of you - truly.
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datsunaholic
- Posts: 2583
- Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2015 12:53 am
- Location: The Wet Coast
Re: Sexual Harassment
People have differing opinions of what constitutes acceptable behavior or acceptable contact.
For example, in my family my Dad's side are very physical with affection. My Moms side are not. As such I grew up with very little physical contact. I don't feel comfortable with and contact at all, really. I mean, I don't even hug my own mom. Now, my grandmother (my Dad's mom) expects that and is still to this day confused by my family's lack of affection. Now, that's not sexual at all- but the lines blur in the rest of my life. I've never had any form of intimate relationship because I can't find the courage to ask, so I default to "don't do anything". But that comes with a price, too.
See, I've known a LOT of people who there default form of greeting is a big hug. Mostly women, too. But some men. And I am extremely uncomfortable with it- I get very terse. I've learned to accept it for some people because that's who they are. The alternative for me is to withdraw and never be around them. I have a hard enough time socializing as it is. But it's still uncomfortable.
There are some people who think a pat on the rear is no different. No one told them differently, or if they were told so they think it's stupid. To them it's no different than a handshake or a hug. Even if there is no sexual connection, what they fail to realize is that any contact without consent is wrong.
A handshake is different- one person offers, the other has the choice to accept or not. In most cases hugs are too- though having someone run up and bear hug you without you having any time to accept before contact crosses the line. A butt slap almost never happens with consent- you don't see it coming, and no one asks. Since the intent can't be determined and the "recipient" isn't expecting it, it's unwanted contact. Which makes it harassment.
And I was never taught that. In fact I was taught quite the opposite- to stop being so uptight when it came to my reaction to other peoples affection. Now, I wasn't taught to slap people on the rear, and I was taught basically don't touch women at all- or at least that's what I learned and so I don't. Doesn't mean I haven't taken advantage of someone, because I have, even though no physical contact occurred. That's my wrongdoing.
For example, in my family my Dad's side are very physical with affection. My Moms side are not. As such I grew up with very little physical contact. I don't feel comfortable with and contact at all, really. I mean, I don't even hug my own mom. Now, my grandmother (my Dad's mom) expects that and is still to this day confused by my family's lack of affection. Now, that's not sexual at all- but the lines blur in the rest of my life. I've never had any form of intimate relationship because I can't find the courage to ask, so I default to "don't do anything". But that comes with a price, too.
See, I've known a LOT of people who there default form of greeting is a big hug. Mostly women, too. But some men. And I am extremely uncomfortable with it- I get very terse. I've learned to accept it for some people because that's who they are. The alternative for me is to withdraw and never be around them. I have a hard enough time socializing as it is. But it's still uncomfortable.
There are some people who think a pat on the rear is no different. No one told them differently, or if they were told so they think it's stupid. To them it's no different than a handshake or a hug. Even if there is no sexual connection, what they fail to realize is that any contact without consent is wrong.
A handshake is different- one person offers, the other has the choice to accept or not. In most cases hugs are too- though having someone run up and bear hug you without you having any time to accept before contact crosses the line. A butt slap almost never happens with consent- you don't see it coming, and no one asks. Since the intent can't be determined and the "recipient" isn't expecting it, it's unwanted contact. Which makes it harassment.
And I was never taught that. In fact I was taught quite the opposite- to stop being so uptight when it came to my reaction to other peoples affection. Now, I wasn't taught to slap people on the rear, and I was taught basically don't touch women at all- or at least that's what I learned and so I don't. Doesn't mean I haven't taken advantage of someone, because I have, even though no physical contact occurred. That's my wrongdoing.
Last edited by datsunaholic on Sat Oct 28, 2017 12:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
Death is Nature's way of telling you to slow down.
Re: Sexual Harassment
BSG, If a hugging victim says nothing to the hugger, but reports it to CNN, should the hugger be prosecuted?
Re: Sexual Harassment
Riiiiiiight - because a man who grabs women's asses while telling them a joke about how his favorite magician is David COP A FEEL has no fucking clue he's being inappropriate. And FUCK THAT, it's not 'being inappropriate' - it's fucking sexual assault!
Here's one thing I know: if any of you saw a black man do that to your woman, you'd be in the office of the nearest LEO or prosecutor demanding PROSECUTION. That you can excuse it in an old rich white guy is morally reprehensible.
Fuck you guys, seriously. You are pieces of shit.
Here's one thing I know: if any of you saw a black man do that to your woman, you'd be in the office of the nearest LEO or prosecutor demanding PROSECUTION. That you can excuse it in an old rich white guy is morally reprehensible.
Fuck you guys, seriously. You are pieces of shit.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan
~ Carl Sagan
Re: Sexual Harassment
First of all, it would be the woman's choice to press charges, wouldn't it? But I wouldn't argue for prosecution of a 93 yr old disabled man and his color would have nothing to do with it. I don't consider what Bush did to be serious legal offense. It could be handled outside of the legal system. Stay away from the guy or slap him upside the head. If he kept rolling up to her house with his hands grasping for ass, I might deal with it differently. I'd put a stick in the spokes of his wheel chair. (oops! I just offended every disabled person in the world and should be arrested)BoSoxGal wrote:Here's one thing I know: if any of you saw a black man do that to your woman, you'd be in the office of the nearest LEO or prosecutor demanding PROSECUTION. That you can excuse it in an old rich white guy is morally reprehensible.
Is that how you argued court cases?BoSoxGal wrote:Fuck you guys, seriously. You are pieces of shit.
BSG - So, Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, remember as you deliberate this case, if you don't accept my argument and find the defendant guilty, you are pieces of shit. Fuck you. Seriously
Isn't there a way to discuss this without attacking the people who disagree with you?
Never mind...
Re: Sexual Harassment
Bush's actions were in public (from what I have hard) not in private. This suggests that he believed what he was doing was 'naughty' but not shameful. Cosby, Weinstein, O'Reilly, Ailes committed their assaults in private because they knew they were wrong. Bush's joke is consistent with the idea that he believed what he was doing somethng naughty but not a moral wrong.
Or just immune to poor arguments delivered from a very high horse by someone not in control of their faculties. The boundaries for what is accepted behavior and the way physical communication is interpreted are different in different cultures and in different settings. Apparently this is a new idea to you and you are having trouble grasping it.
yrs,
rubato
Fuck you guys, seriously. You are pieces of shit.
Or just immune to poor arguments delivered from a very high horse by someone not in control of their faculties. The boundaries for what is accepted behavior and the way physical communication is interpreted are different in different cultures and in different settings. Apparently this is a new idea to you and you are having trouble grasping it.
yrs,
rubato
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datsunaholic
- Posts: 2583
- Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2015 12:53 am
- Location: The Wet Coast
Re: Sexual Harassment
Really, Rube?
Apparently most men can't grasp the concept of "don't touch". Has nothing to do with culture- this is our culture now. Women have spoken and have said "This is not acceptable".
We as men need to make some effort to see this from the women's point of view. Yes, it's hard- because most men who do these sort of actions have never been sexually assaulted. We don't know what it's like. Or wouldn't recognize it if they saw it, because women just don't DO that. Or if they did, we'd just see it as some sort of "initiating a mating ritual". That is, unless the woman doing it wasn't "attractive". Most men that participate in this behavior aren't particularly attractive, but it doesn't matter because unwanted contact is still unwanted contact.
Apparently most men can't grasp the concept of "don't touch". Has nothing to do with culture- this is our culture now. Women have spoken and have said "This is not acceptable".
We as men need to make some effort to see this from the women's point of view. Yes, it's hard- because most men who do these sort of actions have never been sexually assaulted. We don't know what it's like. Or wouldn't recognize it if they saw it, because women just don't DO that. Or if they did, we'd just see it as some sort of "initiating a mating ritual". That is, unless the woman doing it wasn't "attractive". Most men that participate in this behavior aren't particularly attractive, but it doesn't matter because unwanted contact is still unwanted contact.
Death is Nature's way of telling you to slow down.
Re: Sexual Harassment
Andy, i'm sure you know this, and have experienced it already to some degree, but love does change over time. Maybe in some instances we end up despising those we love, but hopefully not because one of us grows old and infirm.ex-khobar Andy wrote:Not sure about a pass (interesting choice of word) but at least he apologized right away. I think there is a subtext for most of us older guys who are terrified of growing old and being despised. We have all heard stories about the elderly father with dementia who makes a pass at his own daughter: and while I accept that there is a real possibility that I will slobber my food in an unpleasant manner and become unlovely, I cannot bear the thought that I might lose my capabilities so much that I become unloveable.
I think it is far more likely for a daughter to despise her father because he did grab at her, and not because he has dementia. I have a friend who was sexually abused by her father, and who was unable to speak about it until after he died. And she does despise him, and everyone else who tried to normalize his behavior. Her father died about the same time mine did, and while my dad's dementia was frustrating and heartbreaking, and taking care of him was an incredible challenge, he was never unloved or unlovable.
“I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.” ~ Ruth Bader Ginsburg, paraphrasing Sarah Moore Grimké
Re: Sexual Harassment
Sexual abuse within the family destroys lives and takes a long time to come to terms with. Counseling might help your friend dealing with her anger, but it is a long term process that can last a lifetime. It amazes me that those in the families involved try and diminish it; the person you should trust most takes advantage of that trust and abuses you--this is devastating.
As for HW, I sincerely doubt he grew up in a culture that saw patting a woman on the rear as a way of greeting or something acceptable; he knew damn well it was wring and his frat boy rationalization does not make it a cultural norm. Face it, in our culture we are raised with an understanding that certain areas are off limits to touching (especially among the opposite sex); breaching that without permission is just a display of dominance and power, nothing necessarily sexual, just something saying I can do what I damn well please. And yes, even if those victimized by the person in power do not voice their objection, it hardly means they welcome it, nor does it mean they should have to tolerate it.
Sure, HW doesn't belong in jail at this stage of his life for this, but he also doesn't need people making excuses for him/blaming the victims.
As for HW, I sincerely doubt he grew up in a culture that saw patting a woman on the rear as a way of greeting or something acceptable; he knew damn well it was wring and his frat boy rationalization does not make it a cultural norm. Face it, in our culture we are raised with an understanding that certain areas are off limits to touching (especially among the opposite sex); breaching that without permission is just a display of dominance and power, nothing necessarily sexual, just something saying I can do what I damn well please. And yes, even if those victimized by the person in power do not voice their objection, it hardly means they welcome it, nor does it mean they should have to tolerate it.
Sure, HW doesn't belong in jail at this stage of his life for this, but he also doesn't need people making excuses for him/blaming the victims.
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Burning Petard
- Posts: 4511
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- Location: Near Bear, Delaware
Dirty Old Man
Cliche's become that because there is an element of truth. Bush 41 does not get a pass because he is in a wheel chair and old.
Many years ago I was 34 in the work place and having a conversation with a 23 year old female colleague. She was better than average in appearance, but no knock out. She was asking me about the male culture--why do older men, and the older the more likely, look at her with such a degree of salaciousness? Seemed to her that males of her generation at least tried to hide it to some degree.
I tried to talk sincerely but it really took me by surprise. This was breaking the male/female cultural divide in a manner I had never experienced, even with my wife. I had never thought about it, never noticed it, and I could honestly say I did not know.
But now I should know. See the column by Charles Blow in the NY Times for today
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/29/opin ... ctionfront
snailgate
Many years ago I was 34 in the work place and having a conversation with a 23 year old female colleague. She was better than average in appearance, but no knock out. She was asking me about the male culture--why do older men, and the older the more likely, look at her with such a degree of salaciousness? Seemed to her that males of her generation at least tried to hide it to some degree.
I tried to talk sincerely but it really took me by surprise. This was breaking the male/female cultural divide in a manner I had never experienced, even with my wife. I had never thought about it, never noticed it, and I could honestly say I did not know.
But now I should know. See the column by Charles Blow in the NY Times for today
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/29/opin ... ctionfront
snailgate
Re: Sexual Harassment
Dick Cavett confesses to sexually assaulting Diana Ross:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkbuhXqY5f0
Will It Never End!
yrs,
rubato
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkbuhXqY5f0
Will It Never End!
yrs,
rubato
Re: Sexual Harassment
Quite bluntly, I suspect GHW Bush is in an advancing state of senility.BoSoxGal wrote:Are you serious?
If an old man calls a black person nigger, is that still racism?
Why the fuck would someone get a pass on sexual assault because they’re old?! And yes, unwanted touching of a sexual nature - like fondling a woman’s ass - is criminal sexual assault.
Jesus fuck!
Treat Gaza like Carthage.
Re: Sexual Harassment
Sadly, things like that are not as unusual as you might think with Alzheimer's or dementia patients. (And I suspect Bush has one or the other.)ex-khobar Andy wrote:Not sure about a pass (interesting choice of word) but at least he apologized right away. I think there is a subtext for most of us older guys who are terrified of growing old and being despised. We have all heard stories about the elderly father with dementia who makes a pass at his own daughter: and while I accept that there is a real possibility that I will slobber my food in an unpleasant manner and become unlovely, I cannot bear the thought that I might lose my capabilities so much that I become unloveable.
Treat Gaza like Carthage.
Re: Sexual Harassment
No, you're projecting.BoSoxGal wrote:Riiiiiiight - because a man who grabs women's asses while telling them a joke about how his favorite magician is David COP A FEEL has no fucking clue he's being inappropriate. And FUCK THAT, it's not 'being inappropriate' - it's fucking sexual assault!
Here's one thing I know: if any of you saw a black man do that to your woman, you'd be in the office of the nearest LEO or prosecutor demanding PROSECUTION. That you can excuse it in an old rich white guy is morally reprehensible.
Fuck you guys, seriously. You are pieces of shit.
Treat Gaza like Carthage.
Re: Dirty Old Man
How about because he is in an advancing state of senility?Burning Petard wrote:Cliche's become that because there is an element of truth. Bush 41 does not get a pass because he is in a wheel chair and old.
snailgate
Treat Gaza like Carthage.
Sexual Harassment
That's so wrong on so many levels.rubato wrote:Dick Cavett confesses to sexually assaulting Diana Ross:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkbuhXqY5f0
Will It Never End!
yrs,
rubato
For the times they are a-changin'. Thank God and amen.
“In a world whose absurdity appears to be so impenetrable, we simply must reach a greater degree of understanding among us, a greater sincerity.”
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datsunaholic
- Posts: 2583
- Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2015 12:53 am
- Location: The Wet Coast
Re: Sexual Harassment
Yes. My grandfather. Same problem. Slow decline into dementia completely removed his filters for socially acceptable behavior. That included extremely racist remarks and grabbing the rears of female members of the family. Things he had learned NOT to do. He had to learn it- he didn't exude class, he was a regular truant in his formative years. My grandmother told me about the "Wolf Whistle" he installed in his car back in the 1930s. Or what her opinion of him (which wasn't a good one) was back when she was 14-15 years old. But she married him when she was 17 anyway, and they were married 64 years.Jarlaxle wrote:Sadly, things like that are not as unusual as you might think with Alzheimer's or dementia patients. (And I suspect Bush has one or the other.)ex-khobar Andy wrote:Not sure about a pass (interesting choice of word) but at least he apologized right away. I think there is a subtext for most of us older guys who are terrified of growing old and being despised. We have all heard stories about the elderly father with dementia who makes a pass at his own daughter: and while I accept that there is a real possibility that I will slobber my food in an unpleasant manner and become unlovely, I cannot bear the thought that I might lose my capabilities so much that I become unloveable.
It was extremely distressing to see it happen, and even worse was that the only way to keep it from happening was to basically isolate him from the world. Which made his dementia progress faster, because when he was ACTIVE, the symptoms would lessen. That's not how I wanted to remember my grandfather.
The worst part is that I fear the same thing will happen to me. I have to constantly monitor my own behavior, because I have not figured out how to filter my thoughts in a way that I want them to run. I don't do the actions that would constitute sexual harassment or assault- because I know they are wrong. That doesn't mean the thoughts don't happen. I just have to keep them under the surface. But it takes a conscious effort, and I don't understand why it doesn't simply ingrain as a habit to think the correct way.
Death is Nature's way of telling you to slow down.