Worse than a dog ...

[Timster]

Nice post above, Jim. But you are so wrong in your interpretation of the proceeding post.

What I was referring to as the "Liberal" interpretation was BSG. Owing to the fact that she did not actually view the video. And still had a measure of outrage. Just saying.

However; If you would like to be outraged without evidence? Please. Feel free.

But let me make one thing PERFECTLY CLEAR.

You will never take credit (on my watch) for your claim to fame that you have been called a "bleeding heart Liberal" from me. I never said anything of the sort. Knowing as I do that you are a devout Republican and Hardcore Reagan Sodomite... I would never attach that epithet to your political persuasion...but enough about that.

[dales]

(note: I wrote a longer and more thoughtful post but it disappeared. I don't feel like writing it again)

It went to the same place my research paper on "Particle Physics" went.

Anywho.........war has always brought about the BEST and the WORST in those involved.

Sad to say.

[loCAtek]

People certainly do laugh under stress ...you guys are gonna make me give away an Alpha Dog story, but I'll make this quick; it's one thing to tell the story, if I'm lucky he'll send me the video he took of himself almost getting killed (again).

This was on a night convoy, and the insurgent ambush was particularly thick. Usually, when attacked the trucks are told to keep rolling and leave it to the security forces to engage the enemy. FYI Contractors are NOT authorized to carry weapons so if they stuck around they'd just be sitting ducks.
Alpha did try a little dodging and weaving but a ten-ton tanker truck is hardly maneuverable, and made very unwieldy by the shifting FLAMMABLE fuel in the back. Seeing he was in trouble the Army did what it thought was a protective maneuver and circled him with smaller HUMVEEs.
Not really a good idea, because now he couldn't move, and his cab was raised above any shielding the security vehicles could offer. To make matters worse, he was not authorized to use a military frequency, so he couldn't tell them to move; thus he was made into the aforementioned fowl.
While the fire fight was raging around him, threatening any second to his detonate his truck and thousands of gallons of high-grade diesel; all he could do was radio his convoy commander and laugh about how bad shots the Iraqis were. The video is dark, of course, but you can see the flashes from the suppressors of the American M16A2s, right outside his windshield; and hear the ~pings~ of rounds hitting his truck and tank.
Also, in the audio, you hear Alpha chuckling,
"You guys SUCK! You guys can't shoot worth SHIT Ha-ha-ha!"

..etc.

You deal with the stress, any way you can.

[The Hen]

The video from on its face, is an ugly insight to the cost of war.? Somebody definitely needs to be checked. Sorry the dog was sadly collateral damage. Man's inhumanity to Man's best friend ....

The video is an insight into the types of people the US have recruited as soldiers.

"...

That is not stress, that is perversion.

Perversion is treating cruelty towards animals as even a close equivalent to cruelty towards humans.

yrs,
rubato

That would be perversion. I am glad I didn't.

[loCAtek]

Just one more thing, it's apparent this is taking place on a city street corner. If you look past the EOD vehicle up ahead on the sidewalk, there is a civilian man approaching the IED site, on the same side of the street.
As previously stated, it was too dangerous for the team to get out of their vehicles, to wave him away. If the EOD did detonate this bomb, they had to do it, before that man got close enough to be injured, or killed.

[The Hen]

And yet they laugh as they await the fate of the dog.

Great people to have over there.

They should all be sent back now.

[loCAtek]

Also, in the shadows under the awning, appears to either be a small woman or a child approaching.
If that is a security vehicle, there should be about four or five soldiers in it; I do hear multiple voices, but only one person laughs. In fact, faintly in the background you can hear someone explaining calmly, " ...don't let the dog get in the way." ...of saving those people's lives, I assume.
After the blast, again there's only one person laughing, one other person says 'Damn", "whoa" while another says, "Whatever". They're average people under stress



...and they are back.

[BoSoxGal]

Tim, I'm not sure why the need to attack me? I don't need to view a video of what was described to know that I will find it sick.

LJ, I'm curious as to whether you have served in the US military and gone through boot camp and combat training?

For folks interested in hearing from the mouths of Iraq and Afghani vets, check out the documentary film The Ground Truth.

Anyone who believes that good people don't do sickening things in war has got his/her head buried in the sand. People already inclined toward psychopathology find a refuge in war, but well-adjusted people are conditioned by the military combat training process to be anxious for battle. There are plenty of decent, non-liberal folks in the military who will acknowledge this truth.

[dales]

[Timster]

Tim, I'm not sure why the need to attack me? I don't need to view a video of what was described to know that I will find it sick.

LJ, I'm curious as to whether you have served in the US military and gone through boot camp and combat training?

For folks interested in hearing from the mouths of Iraq and Afghani vets, check out the documentary film The Ground Truth.

Anyone who believes that good people don't do sickening things in war has got his/her head buried in the sand. People already inclined toward psychopathology find a refuge in war, but well-adjusted people are conditioned by the military combat training process to be anxious for battle. There are plenty of decent, non-liberal folks in the military who will acknowledge this truth.

No need at all. Sarcasm 101. Deal.

[loCAtek]

FWIW There is an American organization that really goes above and beyond the call of duty to rescue stray dogs (and cats) from Iraq, at the behest of the servicemen and women who love them.

No Dog Left Behind

In one year, they rescued 200 animals!

No Dog Left Behind



No Dog Left Behind is a documentary about the enduring friendships forged in wartime between military men and women and their canine comrades. It is a film that reveals the power of the human-animal bond to comfort, heal, and inspire the best in people in the worst situations; to find their humanity in the midst of dehumanizing conditions. The war in Iraq has seen an unusual number of troops rescuing stray dogs and caring for them, in spite of military prohibitions.

more

[Lord Jim]

LJ, I'm curious as to whether you have served in the US military and gone through boot camp and combat training?

No I haven't BSG, have you?

Are you attempting to claim that our troops do not receive training and instruction regarding acceptable conduct and procedures prior to deployment in combat zones? If so, you are badly misinformed.

For folks interested in hearing from the mouths of Iraq and Afghani vets, check out the documentary film The Ground Truth.

Unfortunately, anecdote-based "documentaries" of this sort are of very little value in terms of determining what is going on because what winds up on the screen is entirely dictated by the ideology and agenda of the film maker. You never know what wound up on the cutting room floor. Whenever you have tens of thousands of people who have been through something, you will find a wide enough range of views among them that if you cherry pick, you can find validation for virtually any pre--determined conclusion. Statistical information is far more valid.

"...

That is not stress, that is perversion.

Perversion is treating cruelty towards animals as even a close equivalent to cruelty towards humans.

yrs,
rubato

That would be perversion. I am glad I didn't.

I see rubato's reading comprehension skills are as keen as ever, since obviously Hen said nothing of the sort.

The video is an insight into the types of people the US have recruited as soldiers.

I have to disagree with that as well, Hen. the vast majority of US troops serve honorably. This video only shows what I stated earlier; that no system is perfect.

[BoSoxGal]

Okay, Timster.

I was in ROTC, and I've spent time on active military bases.

My father and brothers have a combined 50 years of active duty time, including combat in Korea (dad) and a few deployments to Iraq (youngest brother). I have a couple of close friends serving active duty at present, too, with several Iraq and Afghanistan deployments between them. So, my opinions are based in more than a few facts about actual experiences in the military.

And I'll trust my friends who've served and recommended the documentary to me.

Yes, soldiers are trained. No, they don't always follow their training. War is funny, it doesn't always shake out like in the classroom at West Point or the boot camp exercises at Parris Island.

[loCAtek]

It almost never does.

The video isn't nearly as graphic as many Hollyweird movies would lead you to expect*; while the YouTube blurb is entirely misleading. It makes you think some Americans went out of their way to target a dog, when in fact this was a standard kind of EOD operation that took place regularly, for the sake of the safety of US and Iraqi lives. When dealing with improvised explosives, you can never be sure of its stability and with civilians in the balance, it has to be dealt with as quickly and carefully as possible.
Again, the cameraman and his commentary, had nothing to do with procedures that the EOD were following to minimize damage. The bomb disposal team just had to weigh which was more important- the two (or more) Iraqis being threatened, or a stray dog. IMHO, I don't find that sick.


*If you've seen 'Saving Private Ryan' or 'Blackhawk Down' you've seen a lot worse.

[rubato]

The participants in the infamous Milgram experiments were NOT laughing.

Recall, if you will the PURPOSE of said experiemnts.

Some of them were laughing. As people start to decompensate and break down emotionally under stress some of them respond by inappropriate laughter.

The PURPOSE was not as important in the end as what was learned. What was learned was completely different than what they expected when the experiment was planned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

"...A few subjects began to laugh nervously or exhibit other signs of extreme stress once they heard the screams of pain coming from the learner.[1] ..."


Yrs,
rubato

[loCAtek]

Can confirm that was EOD Explosive Ordnance Disposal, the vehicle is a

Cougar JERRV Joint EOD Rapid Response Vehicle


...parked to its right is a Buffalo Mine Clearance Vehicle



Both are used by US and UK bomb disposal units. The source of this story, The Daily Mail failed to do their research, and constructed their scenario instead.

FWIW It is a woman and a child moving towards the location, to the right of the JERRV and beside a black and white striped beam.


You can also see more people moving closer in the background.

[Sean]

Anyway, I'm sure the dog enjoyed it...

[Liberty1]

Perhaps calling the dog towards the IED was a way to save a soldiers life. I say that from the perspective of a technician I've worked with for 20 years, "Mike A". His son is a Marine, his job is to take point and look for mines and IEDs with a detector. He's done this everyday in Afganistan, that is up until just before Thanksgiving when he had his right leg blown off below the knee.

Using an "unsuspecting poor creature" seems like a pretty effective tactic.

[loCAtek]

Life for Iraqi dogs is extremely hard; they are not considered pets there, but 'unclean animals' like pigs. So, the native dogs you'll see are sick, starving and routinely abused by the locals. Like Nubs;



Nubs was forced to be a fighting dog for sport, and his ears were hacked off by as a pup, hence his name. Either he escaped or was abandoned, and was later found running with a pack of strays by Maj. Brian Dennis. The Marine didn't adopt the dog at first, but he would see it regularly when he traveled through the dog's turf. The turning point came when he came back to camp and found Nubs with a terrible wound in his side; Maj. Dennis was told that an Iraqi soldier had gotten angry and stabbed the dog with a screwdriver. Insisting Nubs had to get medical attention from the Corpsmen, Nubs recovered and the two became fast friends. Nubs now lives in Chicago with Maj. Dennis.

Other dogs in Iraq have become living canine IEDs by the insurgents; Stray Dogs Used as Suicide Bombers

The dog in the video didn't have any chance of having a good life there, but he's out of his misery now.

[loCAtek]

FWIW Many US troops had camp dogs, my BF's MLO supply yard had a mascot, that they tried to get back to the states. Unfortunately, they were unsuccessful.