Semper Fi Pissin' Idiots!

[BoSoxGal]

Most of us who were against it probably understand that better than folks who are quicker to jump to war - those who likely buy into 'The Old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est Pro patria mori.'

The same ones who don't want to see the pictures of flag draped coffins come home on C130s.

eta: I agree that essentially we are sending young men to put their lives at risk in a war that doesn't even make sense to them, and that pissing on the corpse of someone who just tried to end your life is the act of the young, foolish & scared. That their lives may be ruined over it seems out of proportion.

[Timster]

Thank you.

[Sue U]

I agree that essentially we are sending young men to put their lives at risk in a war that doesn't even make sense to them, and that pissing on the corpse of someone who just tried to end your life is the act of the young, foolish & scared. That their lives may be ruined over it seems out of proportion.

The problem is that beyond the Marines' personal foolishness in the act itself, this kind of incident can only serve to enrage Afghans (regardless of whose "side" they might be on) and thus endanger all other troops, jeopardize the "real" war for hearts and minds, and undermine diplomatic efforts to end the conflict. Marines may be trained to kill, but they are also (supposedly) trained to be professionals; there is simply no place nor excuse for these kinds of antics.

Timster, I am deeply sorry for your loss; the war in Iraq was stupid and unnecessary adventurism brought on by a host of miscalculations and misguided political theories of the previous administration -- as well as the political cowardice of the Congress -- and was an absolute waste of lives, money and national prestige. But I think you would agree that the action against Afghanistan was wholly justifiable; the problem now is how to get out of it without meeting the same fate as previous empires who became entangled there.

[Lord Jim]

The problem is that beyond the Marines' personal foolishness in the act itself, this kind of incident can only serve to enrage Afghans (regardless of whose "side" they might be on) and thus endanger all other troops, jeopardize the "real" war for hearts and minds, and undermine diplomatic efforts to end the conflict. Marines may be trained to kill, but they are also (supposedly) trained to be professionals; there is simply no place nor excuse for these kinds of antics.

[Guinevere]

I agree that essentially we are sending young men to put their lives at risk in a war that doesn't even make sense to them, and that pissing on the corpse of someone who just tried to end your life is the act of the young, foolish & scared. That their lives may be ruined over it seems out of proportion.

The problem is that beyond the Marines' personal foolishness in the act itself, this kind of incident can only serve to enrage Afghans (regardless of whose "side" they might be on) and thus endanger all other troops, jeopardize the "real" war for hearts and minds, and undermine diplomatic efforts to end the conflict. Marines may be trained to kill, but they are also (supposedly) trained to be professionals; there is simply no place nor excuse for these kinds of antics.

Timster, I am deeply sorry for your loss; the war in Iraq was stupid and unnecessary adventurism brought on by a host of miscalculations and misguided political theories of the previous administration -- as well as the political cowardice of the Congress -- and was an absolute waste of lives, money and national prestige. But I think you would agree that the action against Afghanistan was wholly justifiable; the problem now is how to get out of it without meeting the same fate as previous empires who became entangled there.

Bullseye for all of it.

Tim, I add my sympathies. I didn't know. I'm so sorry.

[Rick]

I'm a "Me Too" dog here but Sue's post is correct.

As the other I am sorry for your grief...

[BoSoxGal]

Timster, I missed your last post at the bottom of page 1.

My sincerest sympathy on your loss.

[loCAtek]

Farewell Marine

[loCAtek]

The problem is that beyond the Marines' personal foolishness in the act itself, this kind of incident can only serve to enrage Afghans

There are more than a few indications that these Marines had no intent nor desire to publish this video; no more than they wouold want to publish the private porn of their wives and girlfriends- this is that personal.

Lost Control

Shirky said the Marines probably made the video to show it to a few friends, never thinking that it would be distributed widely.

“This is the invisible audience problem,” Shirky said in an interview. “The minute it’s outside the initial circle of trust, you’ve lost control of it. Marines are not used to the idea that a video that’s only in the hands of other Marines may get out in the world.”
Bloomberg

What might make this private and personal is: it is a sniper's job is to protect his fellow Marines; it takes a sniper to stop a sniper. There is no telling how many Americans died because of these Taliban, but nothing frustrates a good Marine more than not getting the shot and letting his men down. This may have been particularly deadly quarry, or particularly elusive prey, but whatever made their termination that important to the sniper unit- that was supposed to be their personal business.

[loCAtek]

That unit took many losses that deployment;

3/2 Marines honor their fallen brothers
10/5/2011 By Pvt. Brian M. Woodruff, 2nd Marine Division


MARINE CORPS BASE CAMP LEJEUNE, N.C. — Marines, sailors, family members and friends gathered to honor, Staff Sgt. Jason A. Rogers, Cpl. Adam D. Jones, Lance Cpl. Peter J. Clore, Sgt. Mark A. Bradley, Cpl. Michael C. Nolen, Lance Cpl. Jabari N. Thompson, and Seaman Apprentice Aaron D. Ullom, during a memorial service aboard Marine Corps Base Camp Lejeune, N.C., Oct. 5.

The service members, who were all a part of 3rd Battalion, 2nd Marine Regiment, 2nd Marine Division, fell during the battalion’s most recent deployment to Afghanistan.

[Sue U]

Do not try to justify this, loCAtek. THERE IS NO EXCUSE. It doesn't matter whether the video was "intended" to be released, or whether there was even a video at all. THERE IS NO EXCUSE. These are representatives of the U.S. government implementing its foreign policy -- a foreign policy that is already fraught with difficulty. THERE IS NO EXCUSE. There is nothing "private" about how the military executes its missions. THERE IS NO EXCUSE. The behavior exhibited here is completely unprofessional and deplorable. THERE IS NO EXCUSE. It is a smear on the good name of servicemen and women who struggle with difficult and dangerous conditions every day who don't stoop to such vile acts -- and whose jobs just got that much harder and more dangerous because of this idiotic stunt. THERE IS NO EXCUSE. It is bad enough we have to be in someone else's country busting up their shit and killing their people; there's absolutely no call to act even more like assholes. THERE IS NO EXCUSE.

Am I making myself clear?

[Lord Jim]

What Sue said...

[Guinevere]

Thirded.

[loCAtek]

Hmmm, you should see what it's really like out there then. Out there, where the real humanity lies....

You seem a little emotional Sue U, emotional enough to raise your voice ...and yet, you're going to deny these Marines have emotions and made an emotional response, that they tried to restrain? That's not an excuse. It's an explanation for their very human behavior, such as yours.

Some say they should be charged, and I believe they will be, but I don't think it will be as far as drumming them out of the corp, or any other such extreme, that would be based on emotion, not justice. Yea, I'll shut up now, until it's time to report the final sentence.

[Rick]

Better go back & check yer UCMJ if this vid is authenticated them boys are going down.

This action has certainly not helped the ex-marine in Iran that is awaiting a death sentence.

[Lord Jim]

I don't think it will be as far as drumming them out of the corp, or any other such extreme

Keld is right...

If this is authenticated, these guys are all out, Dishonorable Discharges all 'round...

The only question will be whether prison time will be involved, (I suspect it will, at least a few months) and if so how much.

And LoCa, I think you've got the "justice" versus "emotional" response dichotomy exactly backwards....

The "just" thing to do is to investigate thoroughly and punish appropriately, within the guidelines of the UCMJ...

And to show the world that the US military expects it's troops to uphold certain standards, and that it punishes those who do not...

The emotional thing to do would be to say, well they were under a lot of stress, and give them a pass...

And as for this, "you haven't been in that situation so you have no right to condemn" non-argument....

I doubt very seriously that you would find many people who have served in that kind of stress, who have anything but condemnation for this disgraceful behavior. I've seen a number of medal winning combat vets on the air the past few days, (including John McCain and Congressional Medal of Honor winner Jack Jacobs) who have uniformly condemned this disgraceful conduct.

[Rick]

So everyone doesn't think I'm spewing Marmite (although that's generally the case).

The Article in question is Article 134 of the UCMJ, usually referred to as the General Article...

[loCAtek]

Better go back & check yer UCMJ if this vid is authenticated them boys are going down.

I did. It's not in the UCMJ, except as maybe an article 134, which is very generalized and could mean anything, Some are reporting it is a violation of Article 15 of the Geneva Convention, which isn't quite right either.
They could instead be charged under Rule 113 which forbids 'despoiling of the dead' which is the military term for 'desecrating a corpse', but that usually had to do with dismemberment[taking trophies], or pillaging.
These rules were written before the age of the personal camera.


ETA: I see we've cross posted

[Joe Guy]

I don't understand how anyone could attempt to justify pissing on dead people in any situation.

Yes, war is hell and many terrible and sickening things happen.

But blaming it on the fact that war is not pretty is the same as condoning it, in my opinion.

Accepting that bad things happen when people are at war is not a good reason to excuse people for doing those bad things.

[Scooter]

The day will come when someone in a uniform will do something wrong, and loCA will make no attempt to defend or justify it in any way.

And everyone will drop dead from the shock.