Uhh Yeah... OK.... Whatever you say...

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Lord Jim
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Re: Uhh Yeah... OK.... Whatever you say...

Post by Lord Jim »

The right has plenty of idiots, but it hardly has a monopoly on them.
Precisely...

And it certainly doesn't have a monopoly on violence....

The assholes who regularly riot at Group of Seven and WTO meetings, (in the US and elsewhere) breaking store windows, setting cars on fire, and generally terrorizing ordinary citizens just trying to go about their daily business ain't KKK members....
But they are also astonishingly ignorant. Illiteracy is high: You can buy "bird feaders," "family resturants" caution against the use of "course language," and so on. Judging by their conversations, both those I've participated in and those I've overheard, most of them can't keep Iraq and Afghanistan even roughly straight, most of them think that the phrase "under God" has always been in the pledge of allegiance, most of them can't place Pakistan even on the correct continent, most of them believe that Obama is a Muslim, and on and on and on.

And they vote overwhelmingly Republican.
Virtually everything you've described there, (except for believing that Obama is a Muslim...though many believe equally ignorant things, like the idea that the federal government blew up the levies in New Orleans, or that the CIA is shipping crack into housing projects) can also be said of inner city areas of major urban centers....

And they vote overwhelmingly Democratic.....
I do not hate right-wingers. (Come on, Lord Jim, we've met in person and dined together (as part of a larger group). Did I ever do anything suggesting that I hate you? We've chatted on the phone several times. Have I ever said anything suggesting that I hate you?)
No, I do not think you hate me at all Andrew... In fact, I'm quite certain you don't.(I think you consider me to be some sort of freak of nature...a Conservative with a brain... :) ...the fact that an articulate, intelligent, reasonably well educated and reasonably well read person can simultaneously be a member of the Catholic Church and credit Ronald Reagan with winning the Cold War must create a good bit of cognitive dissonance for you.... 8-) ) And I think you know I don't hate you either....

I do however find it amusing that you consider me a "right winger"....I suppose by the standards of this bbs I represent the "right wing"... But I believe that really says more about the dominant ideological slant of the forum than it does about me.... :P

At the CSB, EGlide and Steve call me a "right winger"... but EGlide's just an imbecile, and Steve's just trying to be annoying....

Since I know you're not an imbecile, and I have no reason to think that you're deliberately going out of your way to annoy me, I have to assume that your characterization is honestly and sincerely felt....

Though I have expressed a lot of views that would hardly be considered "right wing"....

I've been a lot more willing to give Obama credit for some things than many Conservatives....I support legalizing drugs and prostitution, (those sound like libertarian positions though as I've explained in detail before my motives regarding those positions are pragmatic not libertarian....If the WOD had been a stellar success rather than a demonstrably destructive, total and complete abject failure, I'd probably support it) I believe abortion should be legal, not because I embrace some high falutin' lefty buzz phrase like "reproductive rights", but because I see making it illegal as creating a situation that would be worse than permitting it.

I've criticized my own party many times, and have even gone so far as to admit that George W. Bush wound up being every bit as incompetent as a President as Jimmy Carter. (A very painful conclusion for me to have to come to, but facts are facts)

I've said that the GOP Congressional party completely lost it's way under Tom Delay, and I've been highly critical of some of the propeller beanie candidates who have won nominations in this election cycle, particularly Sharon Angle and Christine O'Donnell....I'm disgusted and disheartened by the fact that they were able to be nominated when far better alternatives were available....

I said I saw no problem with a public health care option, (I saw it as a way of expanding competition and options in the market place, something which I always favor) and I went into some detail explaining why I thought those who described that as a "government take over of health care" were talking out their asses....


I support universal mandatory service, which is generally seen as a left wing idea, (my reasoning on this comes from using the WW II generation as a template...that sort of shared experience helps to instill discipline and a good work ethic, exposes people to folks who come from very different walks of life, strengthens our sense of national community and has a host of other benefits....we ought to be able to get those kinds of positive effects without needing a major war to do it.)

On the other hand, I'm very hardcore on the Death Penalty, illegal immigration, the second amendment, national defense and security issues, and the idea that people ought to be allowed to keep more of their own money to spend as they see fit, because in general I trust them to do a better job making those decisions for themselves than having the government do it for them.

I support the abolition of both the Energy and Education Departments, (since those two were created under TIC, the energy and education situations in this country have done nothing but improve, haven't they?...)that's not to say that there aren't some functions they perform that should be retained....the useful functions of the Energy Department can easily be folded either into the Defense or Interior Departments, (depending on the specific function....safe guarding our nuclear material stock pile clearly belongs with Defense, for example) And the Department of Education, (which was nothing but a political payoff to the NEA anyway) can be folded back into a department similar to the old "HEW" ( Health Education and Welfare) department it was spun off from...Perhaps change HHS (Health and Human Services) into HEHS (Health Education and Human Services)

I also support the elimination of the IRS and replacing the personal income tax with a revenue neutral national sales tax, (sometimes called "the fair tax" there are some very well thought out proposals on this out there that would make adjustments for the poor)

If we're going to have a new "stimulus" I propose a three month income tax holiday, that would really kick start demand; I also support taking the money that has been paid back from the TARP to provide a pool of funds for low interest small business loans, to be administered by community banks.

I also support the elimination of all corporate income taxes, (because it's a complete fiction that corporations "pay" taxes....they collect them) and the elimination of the capitol gains tax, (or at the very least a suspension of it, since this will obviously encourage the recirculation of investment throughout the economy, which is desperately needed)

I believe in "free trade" as a general principle; but I also believe as George F. Will once observed, "free trade is not a game at which only one can play"....Free trade is a good thing when there's a level playing field...but we have no obligation to bend over and grab our ankles for those, (like the PRC) who are rigging the game in their favor....

All of these are positions I have detailed at the CSB for years, so as I said, I do find it amusing when someone characterizes me as some sort of doctrinaire "right winger"....I've got positions that ideologically would put me all over the map....the only common theme is pragmatism....

I know you have some positions that deviate from the liberal line...most notably your positions on illegal immigration and second amendment rights....

Which makes me wonder if you realize that the fantasy "Liberalistan" you talked about wanting to create would most likely as one of it's first acts, outlaw the private ownership of firearms....
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Lord Jim
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Re: Uhh Yeah... OK.... Whatever you say...

Post by Lord Jim »

The bottom line is that ignorance and/or stupidity is not in noticeably short supply from either end of the political spectrum.....
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dales
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Re: Uhh Yeah... OK.... Whatever you say...

Post by dales »

Jim...

Please stop making sense.

Thanks...........dales

Your collective inability to acknowledge this obvious truth makes you all look like fools.


yrs,
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Re: Uhh Yeah... OK.... Whatever you say...

Post by Crackpot »

Image
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

Jarlaxle
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Re: Uhh Yeah... OK.... Whatever you say...

Post by Jarlaxle »

I believe abortion should be legal, not because I embrace some high falutin' lefty buzz phrase like "reproductive rights", but because I see making it illegal as creating a situation that would be worse than permitting it.
I agree with you there. Personally...I have no strong feelings either way, but I agree with you that trying to STOP abortion would be a farce at best and a catastrophe at worst.
Which makes me wonder if (Andrew) realize(s) that the fantasy "Liberalistan" you talked about wanting to create would most likely as one of it's first acts, outlaw the private ownership of firearms...
Would that be just before or just after giving all the illegal aliens amnesty and welfare?
Treat Gaza like Carthage.

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loCAtek
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Re: Uhh Yeah... OK.... Whatever you say...

Post by loCAtek »

From Wiki;
Political
Jim Crow laws were a product of the solidly Democratic South. Conservative white Southern Democrats, exploiting racial fear and attacking the corruption (real or perceived) of Reconstruction Republican governments, took over state governments in the South in the 1870s and dominated them for nearly 100 years, chiefly as a result of disenfranchisement of most blacks through statute and constitutions. In 1956, southern resistance to the Supreme Court's ruling in Brown v. Board of Education resulted in a resolution called the Southern Manifesto. It was read into the Congressional Record and supported by 96 southern congressmen and senators, all but two of them southern Democrats.
Woodrow Wilson, a southern Democrat and the first southern-born president of the postwar period, appointed southerners to his cabinet. Some quickly began to press for segregated work places, although Washington, DC and federal offices had been integrated since after the Civil War. In 1913, for instance, the Secretary of the Treasury William Gibbs McAdoo—an appointee of the President—was heard to express his consternation at black and white women working together in one government office: "I feel sure that this must go against the grain of the white women. Is there any reason why the white women should not have only white women working across from them on the machines?"[6]

President Woodrow Wilson introduced segregation in Federal offices, despite much protest.[7] Wilson appointed Southern politicians who were segregationists, because of his firm belief that racial segregation was in the best interest of black and white Americans alike.[7]

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Re: Uhh Yeah... OK.... Whatever you say...

Post by oldr_n_wsr »

Damn LordJim can I copy that post so the next time someone asks about my views I can just cut and paste that?
:ok

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Lord Jim
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Re: Uhh Yeah... OK.... Whatever you say...

Post by Lord Jim »

What a nice compliment oldr....

You certainly may... 8-)
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Andrew D
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Re: Uhh Yeah... OK.... Whatever you say...

Post by Andrew D »

Lord Jim wrote:
The right has plenty of idiots, but it hardly has a monopoly on them.
Precisely...

And it certainly doesn't have a monopoly on violence....

The assholes who regularly riot at Group of Seven and WTO meetings, (in the US and elsewhere) breaking store windows, setting cars on fire, and generally terrorizing ordinary citizens just trying to go about their daily business ain't KKK members....
No, they sure ain't. On the other hand, they don't target individuals for violence because those individuals support whatever it is that they're against. And I don't recall they're having run around beating, hospitalizing, and killing people.

And that's a huge difference. G7 and WTO supporters aren't afraid to live in Seattle (or wherever). Gay people and non-white people are afraid, mostly, to live in places like Elgin OR.
But they are also astonishingly ignorant. Illiteracy is high: You can buy "bird feaders," "family resturants" caution against the use of "course language," and so on. Judging by their conversations, both those I've participated in and those I've overheard, most of them can't keep Iraq and Afghanistan even roughly straight, most of them think that the phrase "under God" has always been in the pledge of allegiance, most of them can't place Pakistan even on the correct continent, most of them believe that Obama is a Muslim, and on and on and on.

And they vote overwhelmingly Republican.
Virtually everything you've described there, (except for believing that Obama is a Muslim...though many believe equally ignorant things, like the idea that the federal government blew up the levies in New Orleans, or that the CIA is shipping crack into housing projects) can also be said of inner city areas of major urban centers....

And they vote overwhelmingly Democratic.....
It's a matter of proportions. You can find the same sorts of things everywhere. There are people in liberal suburbs who hold all sorts of crackpot views. There are people in conservative suburbs who hold all sorts of crackpot views.

The crucial difference is that in small-town America, crackpot views are far more prevalent (as fractions of the totals) than in urban areas. (And why limit urban areas to "inner city areas"? We should count the whole of each urban area, just as we count the whole of each small town. I didn't exclude ranch land from the small towns.)

And that is not true only of right-wing small towns. In bastions of liberalism such as the aforementioned Nevada City CA, many residents hold crackpot views even more bizarre than that the US government blew up New Orleans's levies and that the CIA is shipping crack into housing projects. (There is considerable evidence that the CIA and other government agencies have conducted illegal experiments on non-consenting subjects -- e.g., that whole Tuskegee thing -- but the notion that the CIA is engaged in some bulk drug-trafficking operation(s) directed at residents of housing projects strikes me as way over the top.) But I have encountered many people in Nevada City who seem thoroughly convinced that the government is spying on all of us through our television sets. Not to mention the notion that your hair will grow back faster if you trim it outside under a full moon ....

Still, again, it is a matter of proportions. I have spent time in small towns where, for example, it appeared that everyone believed that "under God" has always been in the Pledge of Allegiance. And so forth.
I do not hate right-wingers. (Come on, Lord Jim, we've met in person and dined together (as part of a larger group). Did I ever do anything suggesting that I hate you? We've chatted on the phone several times. Have I ever said anything suggesting that I hate you?)
No, I do not think you hate me at all Andrew... In fact, I'm quite certain you don't.(I think you consider me to be some sort of freak of nature...a Conservative with a brain... :) ...the fact that an articulate, intelligent, reasonably well educated and reasonably well read person can simultaneously be a member of the Catholic Church and credit Ronald Reagan with winning the Cold War must create a good bit of cognitive dissonance for you.... 8-) ) And I think you know I don't hate you either....
As to the "Conservative with a brain" part, I don't know where you get the idea that I think such a thing is "some sort of freak of nature". I have many times identified various people as "thinking conservatives" -- you and Meade among posters here and at the Other Place, as well as Buckley and many others in the rest of the world. Indeed, in this very thread, I posted quite explicitly (as I have in many other threads, here and at the Other Place), that "the problem is not that most conservatives are ignorant and/or stupid; that is plainly untrue." (Emphases added.)

As to this part:
... the fact that an articulate, intelligent, reasonably well educated and reasonably well read person can simultaneously be a member of the Catholic Church ... must create a good bit of cognitive dissonance for you.... 8-)
I don't see how you reach that conclusion either. I have posted many times that my problem is not with individuals who belong to the Roman Catholic Church. (Of course, I have problems with some of them, and so do you: I think that we have precious little, if any, disagreement about the moral standing of, for example, pedophile priests.)

My problem is with the policies which the RCC has espoused and implemented. (Therefore, unsurprisingly, with the particular Catholics who have espoused and implemented those policies.)

I have posted time and time again that the RCC has for a long time engaged in charitable acts (systemic, not just individual acts) that are praiseworthy. I have raised the question whether those systemic charitable acts suffice to outweigh the systemic acts of evil -- most noticeably genocide -- in which the RCC has also engaged. But that question demonstrates that the core of my problem with the RCC is (as I have posted many times) how it behaves as an institution.

(And as to individual theological conservatism, I redraw your attention to my dear friend, the Episcopal bishop I mentioned above. His theological conservatism makes the theological positions which you have expressed (insofar as I recall) look like those of Katharine Jefferts Schori.)

As to this part:
...the fact that an articulate, intelligent, reasonably well educated and reasonably well read person can simultaneously ... credit Ronald Reagan with winning the Cold War must create a good bit of cognitive dissonance for you....
I continue to think that "credit[ing] Ronald Reagan with winning the Cold War" is an exercise in fantasy. The Soviet Union was already collapsing under its own weight. Its own leaders said so -- when writing to each other not for public consumption.

But what really gets under my skin is not so much simply the assertion that Reagan won the Cold War. You appear to be unwilling to accord much, if any, significance to Iran-Contra. And it is that weird juxtaposition -- shared by many, probably most, conservatives -- that I find unfathomable.

There isn't much, if any, serious doubt that Iran-Contra involved a conspiracy to subvert the Constitution. The administration knowingly violated the statute known as "the Boland Amendment". That in itself is a plain violation of the Executive Branch's obligation to "take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed". (U.S. Const., Art. II, Sec. 3.)

And then there were the shenanigans involving the Sultan of Brunei. Do you (or does anyone else) seriously think that if Congress refuses to fund something, the President can constitutionally go behind Congress's back, obtain a lot of money from the potentate of a foreign nation, and use that money to fund operations which Congress has specifically refused to fund?

Do you really think that Congress's power of the purse does not apply if the President secretly augments the purse with mony from some super-rich guy who happens to be in control of some other country? Do you honestly believe that such conduct lies within a President's -- any President's -- constitutional powers?

It seems to me that you want to have it both ways. When it comes to the collapse of the Soviet Union, Reagan was the stalwart leader in charge and deserves the credit. But when it comes to Iran-Contra, Reagan was a befuddled old man who did not grasp what his underlings were doing.

I ain't buyin' it. If Reagan was in charge about the Soviet Union, then he was in charge about Iran-Contra. If he wasn't in charge about Iran-Contra, then he wasn't in charge about the Soviet Union. If he deserves credit for the Soviet Union, he deserves that credit because he deserves the credit for what his underlings did. And if so, he also deserves blame for what his underlings did in Iran-Contra.

Grab a theory and run with it. But don't grab two theories and run with one when that one suits your political preferences and then abandon that one to run with the other when that other one suits your political preferences.
I do however find it amusing that you consider me a "right winger"....I suppose by the standards of this bbs I represent the "right wing"... But I believe that really says more about the dominant ideological slant of the forum than it does about me.... :P
Some right-wingers are more right-wing than others. Some right-wingers are loony-fringers, others are just right of center, and still others are somewhere in beween. Some left-wingers are more left-wing than others. Some left-wingers are loony-fringers, others are just left of center, and still others are somewhere in between.

If I somehow left the impression that I consider you a loony-fringer, I apologize. (Although, frankly, I fail to see how my oft-repeated descriptions of you as a "thinking conservative" could have left that impression.)

I'll get back to the rest of what you posted later. Right now, I have just enough time for a couple of quick responses to postings here by others, and then it's back to work.
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Re: Uhh Yeah... OK.... Whatever you say...

Post by Andrew D »

Thanks, loCAtek for telling us what was already common knowledge: The Democratic Party in the South was conservative for decades, because Reconstruction made it political suicide for a Southern politician to be a Republican. But when the Democratic Party became the party of civil rights, the conservatives fled. (See, e.g., Strom Thurmond before and after 1964.)

The conservatism of Southern Democrats was a historically contingent phenomenon deriving from Reconstruction and its aftermath. Once that aftermath had faded, and once the Republican Party moved away from being the Party of Lincoln and towards being what it is today, the Southern conservatives migrated to where they belong: the modern Republican Party.
Reason is valuable only when it performs against the wordless physical background of the universe.

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Re: Uhh Yeah... OK.... Whatever you say...

Post by Andrew D »

Jarlaxle wrote:
Which makes me wonder if (Andrew) realize(s) that the fantasy "Liberalistan" you talked about wanting to create would most likely as one of it's first acts, outlaw the private ownership of firearms...
Would that be just before or just after giving all the illegal aliens amnesty and welfare?
You know, Jarlaxle, before purporting to characterize another poster's views, you might consider taking the trouble to ascertain what that other poster's views actually are. Had you bothered to acquaint yourself even a little bit with what I have said on the subject of illegal aliens, you would not have posted anything nearly so astonishingly wrong as what I have just quoted.

Ascertaining my posted views on the subject is hardly difficult (at least for those who care to grasp them before commenting on them). I am, and have been for years, a hard-liner on illegal immigration. I have posted repeatedly that we should build the wall. I have posted repeatedly that we should deport every illegal alien we can find.

(I have also posted, purely as a matter of political compromise, that if the pro-illegal-alien faction were willing to concede that we should secure our borders to the maximum practicable extent -- including bringing troops home from Iraq and stationing them along the US-Mexico border -- I would be willing to cut a deal (the specifics of which have yet to be determined, because the pro-illegal-alien faction has shown no interest in realistic compromise) concerning the illegal aliens already here. But again, that is purely a matter of political compromise; politics is the art of the possible, and half a loaf is usually better than none.)

My position on illegal immigration is among the most hard-line expressed here and at the Other Place: Build the wall and deport them all. (Of course, it is not as hard-line as yours: The shoot-to-kill everyone who attempts to cross the border illegally is not merely hard-line; it is deranged. And from you, few of us would expect otherwise.)

In short, when it comes to my position on illegal aliens, you are completely full of shit. Which by now should come as a surprise to almost no one.
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Re: Uhh Yeah... OK.... Whatever you say...

Post by Big RR »

No, they sure ain't. On the other hand, they don't target individuals for violence because those individuals support whatever it is that they're against. And I don't recall they're having run around beating, hospitalizing, and killing people.
True, but then those who spike trees to stop logging do. And there are many other loony groups on the left who do just that, targetting individuals who do what they oppose in the same way the right wingers target abortion clinics.

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Re: Uhh Yeah... OK.... Whatever you say...

Post by Andrew D »

Last I checked, the move among tree-spikers was to put warning plaques on the spiked trees. The point is to prevent the logging, not to kill people. Rather different from the motivation behind hitting a gay man in the head with a crowbar.
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Big RR
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Re: Uhh Yeah... OK.... Whatever you say...

Post by Big RR »

If they're warning, I hadn't heard that. But if you're correct, I agree, it's different. The point is, however, that some on the left consider us to be in a revolution where we have to fight, and if some are killed, well that's a cost of the fight.

I don't think the left targets individuals as much as some on the right do (except for the loons who send letter bombs to corporate CEOs or ram whaling ships), but my (admittedly limited) experience with radicals is that they can be pretty ruthless when they want to get their point across. So yes, i would agree that it's not the moral equivalent of beating a gay man to death or hauling a black man behind your truck, but IMHO the ends (even those I fully support) do not justify the violent means.

Jarlaxle
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Re: Uhh Yeah... OK.... Whatever you say...

Post by Jarlaxle »

Andrew D wrote:
Jarlaxle wrote:
Which makes me wonder if (Andrew) realize(s) that the fantasy "Liberalistan" you talked about wanting to create would most likely as one of it's first acts, outlaw the private ownership of firearms...
Would that be just before or just after giving all the illegal aliens amnesty and welfare?
You know, Jarlaxle, before purporting to characterize another poster's views, you might consider taking the trouble to ascertain what that other poster's views actually are. Had you bothered to acquaint yourself even a little bit with what I have said on the subject of illegal aliens, you would not have posted anything nearly so astonishingly wrong as what I have just quoted.
You clearly did not comprehend what I posted.
Ascertaining my posted views on the subject is hardly difficult (at least for those who care to grasp them before commenting on them). I am, and have been for years, a hard-liner on illegal immigration. I have posted repeatedly that we should build the wall. I have posted repeatedly that we should deport every illegal alien we can find.
I'm well aware of that.
(I have also posted, purely as a matter of political compromise, that if the pro-illegal-alien faction were willing to concede that we should secure our borders to the maximum practicable extent -- including bringing troops home from Iraq and stationing them along the US-Mexico border -- I would be willing to cut a deal (the specifics of which have yet to be determined, because the pro-illegal-alien faction has shown no interest in realistic compromise) concerning the illegal aliens already here. But again, that is purely a matter of political compromise; politics is the art of the possible, and half a loaf is usually better than none.)

My position on illegal immigration is among the most hard-line expressed here and at the Other Place: Build the wall and deport them all. (Of course, it is not as hard-line as yours: The shoot-to-kill everyone who attempts to cross the border illegally is not merely hard-line; it is deranged. And from you, few of us would expect otherwise.)

In short, when it comes to my position on illegal aliens, you are completely full of shit. Which by now should come as a surprise to almost no one.
Hmm, maybe had you READ and COMPREHENDED what I quoted and what I posted, you could have responded with an intelligent reply. Instead, you either did not read or did not comprehend what I posted, and as a result, posted...well, several paragraphs of nothing.
Treat Gaza like Carthage.

rubato
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Re: Uhh Yeah... OK.... Whatever you say...

Post by rubato »

Big RR wrote:
No, they sure ain't. On the other hand, they don't target individuals for violence because those individuals support whatever it is that they're against. And I don't recall they're having run around beating, hospitalizing, and killing people.
True, but then those who spike trees to stop logging do. And there are many other loony groups on the left who do just that, targetting individuals who do what they oppose in the same way the right wingers target abortion clinics.
My that was a tiny group 'back in the day' and no one has heard of tree spiking in 20years ... Not that any of that ever had to do with the left or Liberals at all.

Pull the other leg.

No one on the left shot people and killed them like the abortion protesters have done. No one on the left called out the dogs like Bull Conner did.

yrs,
rubato

Big RR
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Re: Uhh Yeah... OK.... Whatever you say...

Post by Big RR »

Yawn--the sage shows his ignorance one more time. Thanks for the valuable feedback rubato--we can always count on you. And you're right, it was the conservatives supporting logging that spiked the trees, none of those liberal environementalsts. thanks for making it clear to the rest of us.

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Re: Uhh Yeah... OK.... Whatever you say...

Post by Andrew D »

Let's see. Jarlaxle may have meant that I support "giving all the illegal aliens amnesty and welfare". He may have meant that I "'want[] to create" a nation which would "giv[e] all the illegal aliens amnesty and welfare". He may have meant that the USA which I am suggesting -- one composed of the productive States and relieved of the burden of the leeching States -- would "giv[e] all the illegal aliens amnesty and welfare," even though I do not support its doing so.

The first two readings of his model of unclarity, he has apparently denied. That leaves only the third.

Where does the idea that a USA shorn of the leeching States would "giv[e] all the illegal aliens amnesty and welfare" come from? Certainly not from the example of California -- by far the largest State in both the present USA and the USA as it would exist if the leeching States were given the boot. After all, California voters passed Proposition 187 by a hefty 59%-41% margin. Had that proposition not been struck down by a federal court (and had the subsequently recalled Governor Davis not abandoned appealing that ruling), it would have denied most public services to illegal immigrants.

That is "giving all the illegal aliens amnesty and welfare"? Denying illegal immigrants public services means giving illegal immigrants public services?

Only in the bizarro-world which Jarlaxle evidently inhabits.
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Guinevere
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Re: Uhh Yeah... OK.... Whatever you say...

Post by Guinevere »

Big RR wrote:Yawn--the sage shows his ignorance one more time. Thanks for the valuable feedback rubato--we can always count on you. And you're right, it was the conservatives supporting logging that spiked the trees, none of those liberal environementalsts. thanks for making it clear to the rest of us.
Actually BigRR, there is a bit of truth in what Rubato says. The whole concept of tree-spiking grew out of Edward Abbey's "Monkey Wrench Gang," written in the mid-70s ('75 I think). Abbey and his followers were protesting the devastation of the Southwest US by development, and they were not liberals. They despised liberalism, and were rather more conservative/libertarian in their world views, with a tendency towards anarchy. Hayduke, the leader, was 'Nam vet and a green beret.
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Big RR
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Re: Uhh Yeah... OK.... Whatever you say...

Post by Big RR »

Guin--Well again, we come across defintions; were the tree spikers liberal or conservative? Yes, many in the environmental/conservationist movement would not consider themselves "liberal", but many others would (and,Indeed, who is the true libertarian, one who would tell others what he can or cannot do on his/her land, or one who says it's your land, strip it bare if you want?). The spiking of the trees grew out of the envrionmentalist movement, and those who felt they had a right to dictate to others what they could do on their land, or on land they leased for logging (to the point that they booby trapped the trees to enforce their will and punish those who dared to ignore it--I don't see them as libertarians). Did those in the environmental movement embtrace the entire fabled "liberal agenda"? No, but then who does?

The point I am trying to make is that the left can be as stupid and violent as the right; people like rubato alwys try and distance those on the left from the violent idiots. And that's, IMHO, unjustified.

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