The Judges Must Have Forgotten to Check Her Nether Regions....

[Big RR]

Yess Big RR, I believe in the universal binary condition. All Humanity can be divided into two types: those who believe it is all binary and those who do not.

[BoSoxGal]

Gay, lesbian and intersex whales: our queer sea has much to teach us

[Burning Petard]

Actually I prefer analog over binary

snailgate

[MajGenl.Meade]

Meade--cursing the ground is/was not intended to be an abandonment of creation, more a statement to Adam that creation would not bend to what he and Eve wanted. Gone were the days of paradise, now they would have to work to extract what they could from creation to survive. The "Fall" did not corrupt the remainder of creation, only mankind and its relation to it--at least that's what I see of the allegory presented in Genesis.

Well OK then. I guess my effort to indicate that fish changing gender contradicts the Bible has been shot down. I'm wondering when creation did bend to what A&E wanted. They were expected to work. There is zero indication that they were imprisoned in Eden - there was an outside of which they were to be stewards (the whole earth). Presumably before the Fall there were no thorns and thistles out there; no beasties eating 'em. So, when Adam sinned, something happened to all of creation; and since God killed the first animals to make skins for A&E to wear, I'm guessing it was bad news all round.

The story, analogy, myth, folklore, fact, metaphor, parable (choose one or another of your own) neither validates nor invalidates fish changing sexual function. I'm sorry you feel that God made the world outside Eden a place of hardship and pain before Adam did the naughty thing and expected them to be bitten by snakes in the course of normal activity.

[Big RR]

I think you misunderstand me; my understanding of the genesis account (and let's leave aside whether it is accurate, myth, allegory... for another day) is that many had dominion over creation (including the animals), but this ended with the Fall, when that dominion became less absolute. But before and after, nature worked the same way. So fish changing gender is part of god's creation and god's plan.

[MajGenl.Meade]

I think you misunderstand me; my understanding of the genesis account (and let's leave aside whether it is accurate, myth, allegory... for another day) is that many had dominion over creation (including the animals), but this ended with the Fall, when that dominion became less absolute. But before and after, nature worked the same way. So fish changing gender is part of god's creation and god's plan.

How odd that you've argued in the past that you have no idea what or if God created anything or even whether God exists but you know the plan. (I may have that wrong). I do not understand that this world (thistles, snakes biting our heel and so on) is what God created for man to have dominion over BEFORE the Fall even occurred. Or do you think Adam was only supposed to do all his dominioning in the Garden while leaving the rest of the world to itself?

No, I'm sure that the world before the Fall was very different or God could hardly have expected A&E to exert dominion over it. Do you propose some kind of non-sweat equity form of Dominion before they got tossed out? The entire world as Garden? Interesting idea

As an aside, it's fun (to me) that we can (it seems) agree that fish changing their roles is not grounds to suggest that the Bible rules it out but for two such divergent (no pun intended) reasons!

[Joe Guy]

Not quite transgender but it kinda fits here (rated 'R' for language sensitive Generals)...

[Big RR]

Joe--good one.

Meade--

How odd that you've argued in the past that you have no idea what or if God created anything or even whether God exists but you know the plan.

I don't "know" any of it, but I do know what the bible says, and I am providing this as a rebuttal against what some claim the bible says about gender.

And FWIW, I do not ever recall saying that I disputed or questioned the existence of god; I may well have disputed the nature of god or what god may (or may not have) done, but I do believe in the nature of god (although our conceptions of god may be very different); e.g., unlike Einstein, I have no problem in believing that god does throw dice.

[MajGenl.Meade]

Joe--good one.

I don't "know" any of it, but I do know what the bible says, and I am providing this as a rebuttal against what some claim the bible says about gender.

Right about Joe.

Thanks for the response(s). I did have a sort of teensy feeling that "So fish changing gender is part of god's creation and god's plan" seemed just a little bit knowing . . . And that while we both may be and probably are either wrong or somewhat wrong, we can't both be right. So a tad of knowing must be involved, even tangentially.

Getting back on track a bit, I may have missed what some claim the Bible says about gender. I didn't think it did. [Other than, "man and woman God created them" which isn't a comment about gender reassignment as far as I can gather]. What are some saying now?
(And no Stig jokes please).

[Burning Petard]

I always get a little chuckle when the finite, ignorant, short-lived person announces they 'know' anything about the infinite, all-knowing, all-powerful. beyond time, manifestation of the divine creator of the universe. We don't even know what we don't know.

But it is fun to pretend.

snailgate.

[Joe Guy]

What if the universe wasn't created and just is what it is? What if other than learning how to live peacefully with one another and how to survive there isn't much more we need to know?

[BoSoxGal]

I’ll refer to the Sagan quote in my signature line.

Gay fish, gay birds, gay mammals, gay insects, gay reptiles. Obviously gay is well within the norms and human derived hang ups are rooted in religious indoctrination.

[MajGenl.Meade]

I’ll refer to the Sagan quote in my signature line.

Gay fish, gay birds, gay mammals, gay insects, gay reptiles. Obviously gay is well within the norms and human derived hang ups are rooted in religious indoctrination.

I'm not sure that the "natural" doings of fish, birds, insects and reptiles are a good guide as to how human mammals should live. Pissing and defecating wherever one happens to stand isn't usually endorsed as acceptable behavior in society. And then there's killing a spouse after sex . . .

Come to think of it, the natural habits of mankind are not, in the main, a good guide to life either. Murder, theft, child abuse, lies, male cruelty, selfishness, coveting, ignorance, bias, prejudice, Trump, and so on and so on ad infinitum - all norms evidently. Terrible that anyone should have "hang ups" over errant human doings eh?

Big RR and I via two different approaches seem to agree that the Bible has nothing condemnatory to say about a particular kind of fish changing sexual roles. Nor is there finger-wagging at earthworms. We differ on whether the entire world was f'd up by human choice or if it was just the humans who were damaged.

He has alleged that some humans are using the Bible to argue against gender reassignment and I am waiting to learn who has said such a thing and exactly where they find it in either O or N T.

PS nothing to do with "gay". Those fish are not making a statement of sexual preference but adapting to survival needs in a particular circumstance and environment. Dogs, cows and humans are a different case entirely - they'll do anything to get their rocks off. IMO

[liberty]

I always get a little chuckle when the finite, ignorant, short-lived person announces they 'know' anything about the infinite, all-knowing, all-powerful. beyond time, manifestation of the divine creator of the universe. We don't even know what we don't know.

But it is fun to pretend.

snailgate.

I concur.

[Joe Guy]

Does anyone believe it's possible for someone to know what they don't know?

How could anyone know what they don't know and still not know about it?

[MajGenl.Meade]

Does anyone believe it's possible for someone to know what they don't know?

How could anyone know what they don't know and still not know about it?

Dunno

[ex-khobar Andy]

And there is a can of epistemological worms - and on that subject, most worms are hermaphrodites.

[MajGenl.Meade]

And there is a can of epistemological worms - and on that subject, most worms are hermaphrodites.

Hence my earlier comment:

Big RR and I via two different approaches seem to agree that the Bible has nothing condemnatory to say about a particular kind of fish changing sexual roles. Nor is there finger-wagging at earthworms.

[Econoline]

Is this a woman...or is this a man?

Why?...or why not? (Please watch the whole video. BTW, pronouns aren't even mentioned until about 80% of the way through.)

[Bicycle Bill]

I watched about a minute or so of this and it still doesn't change my mind.   Persons like this are anomalous freaks of nature, just like a two-headed snake or a six-legged calf.

-"BB"-