Church massacre

All the shit that doesn't fit!
If it doesn't go into the other forums, stick it in here.
A general free for all
liberty
Posts: 5002
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 5:31 pm
Location: Colonial Possession

Re: Church massacre

Post by liberty »

Crackpot wrote:Says the unrepentant bigot.
When was the last time you gave money to someone who approached you for help? I have done it for the same reason I give money to the seven hundred club. GOD EXECT HIS CHILDREN TO CARE ABOUT OTHERS. The monthly support we provide helps to drill water well in Africa and India. That is the most useful thing we can do to help our brothers an sisters in the third world. Do you help to drill water wells in the third world?

I suspect I have gotten scam a few times on the streets, but that is not my problem, that is between them and God.
Soon, I’ll post my farewell message. The end is starting to get close. There are many misconceptions about me, and before I go, to live with my ancestors on the steppes, I want to set the record straight.

Big RR
Posts: 14932
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:47 pm

Re: Church massacre

Post by Big RR »

rubato wrote:
Big RR wrote:Well, I think we should give those who lost friends and family a time to mourn before we start to use this horrendous act to make political hay either for or against gun control/2nd amendment, or racism for that matter. There will be plenty of time for that later.

When someone is killed in a car crash we don't say that's its a bad time to talk about safety belts and airbags.

When a balcony collapses and kills several exchange students we don't say that its a bad time to talk about building inspections.

When people die from eating food contaminated with botulinum toxin we don't say that its a bad time to talk about food safety.

When an airliner crashes ... well &c.

It is only after mass gun deaths that we can't talk about controlling access to guns.


That is why years after Sandy Hook there are fewer restraints on transferring assault rifles to the criminally insane than there were before.


yrs,
rubato
I didn't say that we can't talk about it; indeed we should. I just said let's wait a little while and allow the survivor's to bury their dead and grieve before they're bombarded by the rhetoric. I would say the same thing about any of the other examples you gave as well. As I said, there is plenty of time for that later.

User avatar
BoSoxGal
Posts: 20179
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:36 pm
Location: The Heart of Red Sox Nation

Re: Church massacre

Post by BoSoxGal »

Oh please, Jim. :roll:

The confederate flag stands for a historical 'nation' that enshrined an economy based on slave labor and human beings considered to be a lesser animal, livestock to the owner - simply due to black skin color.

The underlying mindset that allows such a nation to proudly trumpet such a system has passed actively from generation to generation, and thus racism has flourished in the south more than anywhere else.

The Confederate flag is as ugly as the Nazi flag and the world views associated with each.

Of course it perpetuates hate, racism and violence.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

User avatar
Joe Guy
Posts: 15480
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:40 pm
Location: Redweird City, California

Re: Church massacre

Post by Joe Guy »

Lord Jim wrote:... The idea that the confederate flag at the state capitol (whatever you think of it) is somehow responsible for "inspiring" (if that's the right word) this callous monster to gun down nine defenseless people would be laughable if this weren't so sad and serious. If the confederate flag had that kind of influence you'd think this kind of thing would be happening all the time...
The cartoon has more meaning than the idea of a confederate flag flying at the state capitol being responsible for the shooting. To many people, that flag represents slavery and hatred of the black race, which is the inspiration for Dylann Roof's slaughter of 9 black people.

User avatar
Crackpot
Posts: 11667
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 2:59 am
Location: Michigan

Re: Church massacre

Post by Crackpot »

...and by displaying the flag the state shows tacit support for those things (not to mention relveling in thier past treason)
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

wesw
Posts: 9646
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:24 am
Location: the eastern shore

Re: Church massacre

Post by wesw »

crackpot, you do realize that saying things like you just said stokes hatred and makes a race war more likely, don t you? man, we need to unite people right now.

User avatar
Lord Jim
Posts: 29716
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:44 pm
Location: TCTUTKHBDTMDITSAF

Re: Church massacre

Post by Lord Jim »

I'm not going to re-argue this with you guys again; you were wrong before and you're still wrong... :P

("treason"? :roll: show me where in Constitution it prohibited states from seceding...)

The Confederate Battle Flag never flew over a single plantation. To me it symbolizes bravery and an independent, defiant spirit. In some cases it's been co-opted by racists, but so has the Christian Cross...

I accepted the idea that it should be removed from state flags because the historical reality is that it was added to those flags as a symbol of "massive resistance" against integration in 1950s, but to equate it with the swastika is too ridiculous for serious discussion.

Now you can sputter self-righteously all you want, that's all I'm going to say. ;)
ImageImageImage

User avatar
Lord Jim
Posts: 29716
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:44 pm
Location: TCTUTKHBDTMDITSAF

Re: Church massacre

Post by Lord Jim »

Reports: Charleston Suspect Confesses, Bought Own Gun, Will Face Death Penalty

Charleston mass shooting suspect Dylann Roof has confessed to police that he killed nine people at the Emanuel AME Church with the goal of inciting a "race war," CNN reports. (A friend says Roof had complained that "blacks were taking over the world" and that "someone needed to do something about it for the white race.")

Roof apparently also told investigators that he almost decided not to carry out his massacre because the patrons of Emanuel's Bible study group were "nice" to him.

CNN says Roof bought the gun used in the shooting at a Charleston store.

South Carolina Gov. Nikki Haley says prosecutors will seek Roof's execution. :ok The state carries out death penalties relatively frequently, usually via lethal injection—10 inmates have been executed there in the last decade. More than 30 are on Death Row.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/ ... ndgun.html

From what I've been seeing and reading about scumbag the last couple of days, a couple of things are starting to become apparent:

First of all the guy's what would be called a "loser". Dropped out of school in the ninth grade, has never been able to hold down a steady job for long, into drugs and heavy drinking, minor brushes with the law...

Like I said, a loser...

The second thing is that even though he was a loser, he wasn't really a loner; he did have a few friends that he socialized with, several of whom have given interviews over the past couple of days. They all seem to tell a very similar story; over the course of about a year he became more and more focused on racism, arguing for racial segregation into separate countries, talking about a race war, etc.

Apparently none of these friends were sympathetic to what he was saying and would sometimes argue with him about it, but never really took what he was saying seriously.

This pattern of social behavior gives me the impression that he probably wasn't involved in some "real life" white supremacist organization. He apparently never talked to any of his friends about having joined one, nor did he ever invite any of them to come to a meeting of any such group. And even though his views were becoming progressively more racially radical, he wasn't dropping his friends to go start hanging out with skin heads, or any other racist groups.

All of this suggests to me that like many homegrown Islamic terrorists, this guy probably "self-radicalized" with stuff he accessed and read on racist websites and blogs. (I won't be surprised if it turns out that he bought the patches for his jacket from one of those sites) I suspect that when they go through his computer, they're going to find he spent a lot of time on sites of that sort.

The toxic stuff he was talking about (and the comments he made the night of the massacre) are not things he was getting from his family, (there's nothing to indicate that they were in any way into this racist crap) or his friends...

That pretty much leaves the internet...
ImageImageImage

User avatar
Gob
Posts: 33646
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:40 am

Re: Church massacre

Post by Gob »

rubato wrote:
While I would concede her general point that black suspects are treated differently in the press than white ones are I would say that in this case the suspect has a good chance of being mentally ill.
Isn't this showing bigotry against the mentally ill, as in way some are claiming bigotry against black people is shown by not calling him a "terrorist"?

What diagnosis/illness would cause a person to do this?
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

User avatar
Gob
Posts: 33646
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:40 am

Re: Church massacre

Post by Gob »

BTW "Dylan Storm Roof" seriously? He should blame his parents for his actions.
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

User avatar
Guinevere
Posts: 8990
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:01 pm

Re: Church massacre

Post by Guinevere »

LJ you are just completely wrong about how that flag is used and what it stands for in the eyes of most people. Sticking your fingers in your ears and pretending not to listen doesn't change that fact, either. It's time for it to be relegated to a museum. Period.
“I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.” ~ Ruth Bader Ginsburg, paraphrasing Sarah Moore Grimké

User avatar
MajGenl.Meade
Posts: 21506
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:51 am
Location: Groot Brakrivier
Contact:

Re: Church massacre

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

As a long-time student of the War of the Rebellion, I have long managed to divorce the flag issue from current social context and defended it in much the same way LJ has done. I was struck by his use of the words "to me" - "to me" this flag represents.... "to me" this flag doesn't represent. Who gives a shit what the Confederate battle flag represents "to me" - white guys at the upper end of the life expectancy range?

I know the stupid flag didn't "cause" this mentally disturbed racist kid to do what he did. But I also know that it stands for racism to an enormous number of people who because of the colour of their skin have the right to that opinion - a right that cannot be denied by older white guys secure in their own privilege. Chattel slavery was the entire cause of the Rebellion and the symbols of the Confederate government and military are symbols of racism, slavery and the degradation of human beings by official policy. They are not "to me" but they are "to those" whose very recent ancestors were held in bondage and who to this day experience the downstream consequences of institutional racism, bigotry and disregard.

When I saw the US flag and the flag of SC at half staff but the rebel battle flag on the lawn padlocked at full staff; when I learned that SC state law requires a 2/3 majority in the state congress to even lower the damn thing.... I changed my mind from vague indifference and waffling about "brave soldiers" and "historic associations". That flag should be gone from any form of governmental display. Like all history, it belongs in books and in museums to be studied for what it was - not used as a weapon of continued defiance of what is the decent and right thing to do.

Take it down - fold it up and put it away, for God's sake and for the sake of all those to whom it is an insult.
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

User avatar
Lord Jim
Posts: 29716
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:44 pm
Location: TCTUTKHBDTMDITSAF

Re: Church massacre

Post by Lord Jim »

BTW "Dylan Storm Roof" seriously?
That's "Dylann" with two "Ns"...

Some additional info about the Roof's family and friends:
The uncle of the Charleston shooting suspect said he was so disgusted by the massacre at the Emanuel AME Church that he would execute his nephew himself if authorities would allow it.
Those comments emerged along with further details of Roof’s family and home life on the same day the 21-year-old Columbia-area native was charged with nine counts of murder and the state’s governor said prosecutors will pursue the death penalty if Roof is convicted.

Carson Cowles spoke with Reuters on Thursday afternoon while police were searching for Roof, telling reporters that Roof’s father had given him a gun as a 21st birthday present. Cowles, who said he recognized Roof in the photo released by authorities, said Roof’s father gave him a .45-caliber pistol for his birthday.

Cowles described Roof as “quiet and soft-spoken,” and added that he would “be the executioner myself if they would allow it.”

It is still not clear if Roof used the pistol during his attack on Wednesday night and authorities would not comment on the details of the on-going investigation. However, Cowles did add that Roof was thrilled to receive the present, recounting a conversation with his nephew to the New York Daily News:

"He said, ‘I got to go, I’m outside shooting target practice right now. He sounded happy about it. My family is nothing like this. We could’ve never seen anything like this – no way, shape or form. He’s a monster and they need to catch him, and he needs to pay for what he’s done."

In addition to relaying the story of Roof’s recent 21st birthday present, Cowles also mentioned that police had been stationed at the home of Roof’s mother while searching for the shooter on Thursday morning.

Cowles added that he had recently expressed worries about his nephew to his sister, concerned that he didn’t have a job and stayed in his room all day.

Fox News commentator Greta Van Sustersen spoke with one of Roof’s friends, Justin Meek, on Thursday, discussing Meek’s claim that Roof’s mother had actually taken his gun away from him.

According to a report by the Washington Post, it was Roof’s sister, Amber, 27, who first alerted authorities of her brother’s identity after seeing his surveillance photo on television on Wednesday night.

Justin Meek said on "On the Record" that Roof came to his home on Tuesday to "chill" and then went to a lake with his brother.

He explained that Roof had previously shown them the gun believed to have been used in Wednesday night's mass shooting.

Meek recalled Roof saying that his mother took the gun away from him, but he had taken it back.

"She didn't trust him with it," said Meek, adding that he was shocked to hear that Roof was the suspect in the brutal murders.

Previous reports indicated that Roof had been given a .45 caliber handgun by his father as a 21st birthday present in April.

Meek told Associated Press that he believes Roof bought the handgun himself, using birthday money from his parents.

Meek called the FBI after recognizing him in the surveillance footage, down to the stained sweatshirt he wore while playing Xbox videogames in Meek's home the morning of the attack.

According to a report by the Washington Post, it was Roof’s sister, Amber, 27, who first alerted authorities of her brother’s identity after seeing his surveillance photo on television on Wednesday night.


Dalton Tyler told ABC News that he had known Roof for about seven months and that he had seen his roommate as recently as this week. Tyler told the news outlet that Roof was “big into segregation and other stuff,” adding that his roommate “wanted to start a civil war.”

Tyler said he met Roof through a good friend and said Roof’s relationship with his parents was “on and off.”
http://heavy.com/news/2015/06/dylann-ro ... -shooting/
ImageImageImage

User avatar
Guinevere
Posts: 8990
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:01 pm

Re: Church massacre

Post by Guinevere »

MajGenl.Meade wrote:As a long-time student of the War of the Rebellion, I have long managed to divorce the flag issue from current social context and defended it in much the same way LJ has done. I was struck by his use of the words "to me" - "to me" this flag represents.... "to me" this flag doesn't represent. Who gives a shit what the Confederate battle flag represents "to me" - white guys at the upper end of the life expectancy range?

I know the stupid flag didn't "cause" this mentally disturbed racist kid to do what he did. But I also know that it stands for racism to an enormous number of people who because of the colour of their skin have the right to that opinion - a right that cannot be denied by older white guys secure in their own privilege. Chattel slavery was the entire cause of the Rebellion and the symbols of the Confederate government and military are symbols of racism, slavery and the degradation of human beings by official policy. They are not "to me" but they are "to those" whose very recent ancestors were held in bondage and who to this day experience the downstream consequences of institutional racism, bigotry and disregard.

When I saw the US flag and the flag of SC at half staff but the rebel battle flag on the lawn padlocked at full staff; when I learned that SC state law requires a 2/3 majority in the state congress to even lower the damn thing.... I changed my mind from vague indifference and waffling about "brave soldiers" and "historic associations". That flag should be gone from any form of governmental display. Like all history, it belongs in books and in museums to be studied for what it was - not used as a weapon of continued defiance of what is the decent and right thing to do.

Take it down - fold it up and put it away, for God's sake and for the sake of all those to whom it is an insult.
EXACTLY!

Beautifully said, too Meade.
“I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.” ~ Ruth Bader Ginsburg, paraphrasing Sarah Moore Grimké

User avatar
Guinevere
Posts: 8990
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:01 pm

Re: Church massacre

Post by Guinevere »

Interesting difference in the "to me" between LJ and I. We grew up maybe 50 miles and 15 years apart. Both closest cities (DC and Baltimore) have pretty southern sensibilities. Both States (Virginia and Maryland) are proud of their histories and have strong Civil War connections. Both of us are students of history. For God's sakes, Gone With the Wind is my favorite movie of all time. But that flag, to me, is only associated with racism and hate. I see nothing bold and brave and patriotic about it. It makes me cringe, just like the swastika (and I'm proud of my German heritage and love that country, too).

To be clear, I don't think these differing views make me better than LJ. I know he's not a racist. I know that while he may be "an older white guy secure in his privilege," I've had a pretty privileged life too. I'm just interested in how we have such different perspectives on this one.
“I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.” ~ Ruth Bader Ginsburg, paraphrasing Sarah Moore Grimké

User avatar
MajGenl.Meade
Posts: 21506
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:51 am
Location: Groot Brakrivier
Contact:

Re: Church massacre

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Yes, that's well said too. Aside from one or perhaps two questionables, I don't think people here are racist. But now I've concluded that if the battle flag should go, so should Chief Wahoo and "Redskins".

Stop me before I vote democrat!
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

User avatar
Guinevere
Posts: 8990
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:01 pm

Re: Church massacre

Post by Guinevere »

MajGenl.Meade wrote:Yes, that's well said too. Aside from one or perhaps two questionables, I don't think people here are racist. But now I've concluded that if the battle flag should go, so should Chief Wahoo and "Redskins".

Stop me before I vote democrat!
Come a little closer, Meade. You are more than welcome in our tent. You may be surprised that you'd find plenty of others like you. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
“I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.” ~ Ruth Bader Ginsburg, paraphrasing Sarah Moore Grimké

User avatar
Lord Jim
Posts: 29716
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:44 pm
Location: TCTUTKHBDTMDITSAF

Re: Church massacre

Post by Lord Jim »

Maybe we'll get the, "He had a bad home life" defense:
Roof was born about three years after his parents had divorced and grew up shuttling between his parents' homes in South Carolina, according to his uncle and the parents' divorce papers. His father, Ben Roof, runs his own construction business, and he remarried after divorcing Dylann Roof's mother.

Roof and his older sister, Amber, lived part of the time with their father and the father's wife, Paige, until Ben and Paige divorced.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/06/ ... 8220150618
ImageImageImage

User avatar
MajGenl.Meade
Posts: 21506
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:51 am
Location: Groot Brakrivier
Contact:

Re: Church massacre

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Roof Construction? Really?
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

User avatar
Econoline
Posts: 9607
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 6:25 pm
Location: DeKalb, Illinois...out amidst the corn, soybeans, and Republicans

Re: Church massacre

Post by Econoline »

:ok What Meade said, 8 posts back. :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
People who are wrong are just as sure they're right as people who are right. The only difference is, they're wrong.
God @The Tweet of God

Post Reply