Hugo Chavez Croaks

[Gob]

Hey Strop, why don't you post about how Ronald Reagan was guilty of treason?

You only have to ask...

[liberty]

As a tribute to Chavez I've had his initials inscribed onto all of the taps in my house.

Me too, on my commode handles.

[liberty]

Hey Strop, why don't you post about how Ronald Reagan was guilty of treason?

You only have to ask...

That was not treason; that was desperation. We could have easily lost the Cold War. Thank God for Ronald Wilson Reason. The man who saved the world from communist slavery.

[MajGenl.Meade]

Well, only some bits of it liberty. I suppose the less-than-Caucasian countries don't count?

[liberty]

Well, only some bits of it liberty. I suppose the less-than-Caucasian countries don't count?

Non-Caucasian countries, are you talking about Africa below the Sahara and the far east? In my opinion the only communist country still in existence is North Korea. The other three are more authoritarian than communist. Is there a communist movement that I am unaware of ?

[liberty]

General you mentioned Caucasian, you made me think of something interesting. Do know what two things all Caucasians peoples have in common regardless of where they are from be it Europe, North Africa, the Middle East or central Asia? One is that they all have Neanderthal genes in their DNA. What is the other?

[rubato]

Bad governments are often replaced by bad governments of a slightly different sort. Chavez came to power on the incompetence and corruption of the regeme which went before. He did reduce the price of gas ... proving only how harmful that is.

yrs,
rubato

[Lord Jim]

Me too, on my commode handles.

I can't think of a more fitting tribute...

[Lord Jim]

He did reduce the price of gas

That must have been the one thing that kept their economy from completely unraveling...

High energy costs, as anyone of even the meanest intelligence should be able to grasp, undermines GDP growth, costs jobs, and punishes most harshly the working poor.

One of the fundamental pillars of any rational energy policy must be to keep the cost of energy as low as possible.

No matter what mix of approaches one chooses to take to energy development, if that principle isn't fundamentally imbedded in the the plan, the plan is not worthy of serious discussion.

[Big RR]

I hardly think a bit of police brutality and bent judges, qualifies Hugo as "brutal thug" BigRR.

Welll, that's your perogative; but I do think that along with assasinations of enemies and jailing of judges that don't toe the "party line" does. Maybe not as brutal as hitler or Stalin or Marcos or Mao, but brutal nonetheless.

[Big RR]

He knows damn well why the US (and every other major Western country) worked with those regimes throughout the Cold War, so why post it?

Please Jim, th end not only justifies the means but turns awful thuigs into freedomn fighters because they opposed the Soviets? Let's not sugarcoat the story and try to say that assholes like Pinochet were persons who cared deeply about the people or their rights.

[quoteThat was not treason; that was desperation. We could have easily lost the Cold War.][/quote]

On the remote possibility that you were not being facetious, I do thank Reagan from saving us from beuing taken over by Ortega and his minions pavng the way for the Soviets to march in and occupy us (and, to avoid any misunderstanding, I am being deliberately facetious).

Of course, I guess you would give every president the right to ingnore duly enacted laws if 9s)he thinks it is necessary? If so, I can see why supporting dictatorships would not be troubling.

[Lord Jim]

try to say that assholes like Pinochet were persons who cared deeply about the people or their rights.

Where did you see me say that?

[Big RR]

Well then, why did you criticize his posting the list?

If you agree with the assessment of Pinochet as a thug who no more deserved our support than Mao or Chavez would have, then I agree. We might have had our reasons to support him and other thugs, but that does not make it, or them, right. the end may well justify the means, but it does not change the means or its characteristics.

[Lord Jim]

There's a huge gap between recognizing a national security need to have a relationships with unsavory characters, and believing that they were " persons who cared deeply about the people or their rights"...That's the part of what you said that I take issue with...

A person would have to be either crazy or completely ignorant about the historical facts, to believe that the folks on that list were " persons who cared deeply about the people or their rights"...However such a belief is no ways a requirement for believing that our dealing with them was justified by larger issues.

Look, I am absolutely delighted that the defeat of the Soviet Union put us in a position to vastly reduce the number of bad actors that we have to have close involvement with...

Nowhere has this been more true than in Latin America, where dictators once thrived all over the region and where today there remain only two such regimes (Venezuela and of course, Cuba...and no one can accuse us of supporting the Cuban dictatorship)

A number of the governments there now are somewhat more to the left than I would ever vote for, but that's their business. These countries are democracies; if it doesn't work out for them they can vote in somebody else with a different approach. We have good relations with all of them.

As I've said before, all things being equal, I greatly prefer that we not support dictatorial regimes. From a practical standpoint, law based democratic societies make more stable and reliable partners in the long run, and from a moral and ethical standpoint , not supporting dictatorships is much more in keeping with our core values as a society.

Of course all things haven't always been equal, and unfortunately even today in some instances that remains the case. The day we achieve independence from foreign oil for example, we will be able to cut loose another group of SOBs and when that day comes, I'll be leading the cheer.

[dales]

CHAVEZ UNDER GLASS

CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) — Venezuela's acting president says Hugo Chavez's embalmed body will be permanently displayed in a glass casket so that "his people will always have him."

Vice President Nicolas Maduro says the remains will be put on permanent display at the Museum of the Revolution, close to the presidential palace where Chavez ruled for 14 years. Maduro says the president will lie in state first for at least another seven days.

A state funeral for Chavez attended by some 33 heads of government who will the usa send, anyone, pee-wee herman perhaps?is scheduled to begin Friday morning. Tens of thousands have already filed past his glass-topped casket at a military academy following a seven-hour procession on Tuesday which took his body from the hospital where he died.

[Lord Jim]

some 33 heads of government

Given the fact that, there's what, more than a 180 countries in the world now that really isn't impressive...

who will the usa send, anyone, pee-wee herman perhaps?

I think Alec Baldwin would be a good choice, assuming he'd agree to a one way ticket....Or we could send The Rockettes to perform a dance number...( though I understand The Comandante is going to be getting the Lenin treatment, rather than being buried, so there won't be any grave to serve as a dance floor)

I assume we'll have somebody there since we have diplomatic relations, (though we haven't had an Ambassador there since 2010, when Chavez refused to accept the one that was appointed.)

I have to say I thought the official statement from Obama struck the right tone:

At this challenging time of President Hugo Chavez's passing," Mr. Obama said in a statement released Tuesday evening by the White House, "the United States reaffirms its support for the Venezuelan people and its interest in developing a constructive relationship with the Venezuelan government.

"As Venezuela begins a new chapter in its history," he continued, "the United States remains committed to policies that promote democratic principles, the rule of law, and respect for human rights."

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-575 ... venezuela/

You'll notice what's missing from that...

Any praise whatsoever for Chavez, or expression of sympathy or regret about his passing....

I also thought it was appropriate that it was simply released in paper form, rather than Obama raising Chavez's significance by delivering it himself publicly.

[oldr_n_wsr]

who will the usa send, anyone, pee-wee herman perhaps?

Susan Sarandon is my pick.

[Gob]

I hardly think a bit of police brutality and bent judges, qualifies Hugo as "brutal thug" BigRR.

Welll, that's your perogative; but I do think that along with assasinations of enemies and jailing of judges that don't toe the "party line" does. .

Evidence for these assasinations BigRR? I don't doubt you, but I have not come across evidence of any.

Assasination is a nasty business though.

“According to the Attorney General, Vasquez De Armas said that during a meeting in Darien, Panama, on September 4 and 6, 2003, an FBI Officer called ‘Pesquera’ and a CIA agent called ‘Morrinson,’ attended a meeting along with two of the plot’s alleged organizers, Patricia Poleo and Salvador Romani, as well as two of those who actually did the killing, Rolando and Otoniel Guevera,” writes Alessandro Parma. “An official from the Attorney General’s office, speaking on behalf of Vasquez De Armas, said that in Panama the FBI and the plotting Venezuelans agreed, ‘to take out Chavez and the Government.’ He said, ‘the meeting’s final objective was to kill President Chavez and the Attorney General.’”

http://www.globalresearch.ca/cia-and-fb ... h-vez/1296

[Big RR]

Evidence? Well, the AI report talks of one assassination (Berrios) and several death threats from internal security forces; I think they are pretty credible organization. But, if you want to be anal retentive, drop the "s" from assassinations.

As for US complicity in plotting the same fate for Chavez, I have never defended the US murdering anyone, or conspiring to do so; but, even if true (and t may well be), it doesn't make the behavior of Chavez any more defensible. Nasty business indeed, whoever does it.

[Gob]

•In May, Juan José Barrios was assassinated by two hooded men in Guanayén, Aragua state. He was the seventh member of the Barrios family to be killed in circumstances that suggested members of the Aragua State Police were involved. In January, Néstor Caudi Barrios, who had witnessed the extrajudicial execution of Narciso Barrios in 2003, was left with permanent injuries after being shot by two men on motorbikes. No progress had been reported in the investigations into these attacks by the end of the year.

The police assasinating someone does not make Chavez a thug, who knows what police corruption could have lead to this? It does not implicate Chavez at all.

The truth is Chavez has been used as a US Government scapegoat for years, they are always afeard of other political systems, and he was not as bad as the those in the US have been led to think.