Sexual Harassment

[liberty]

This will come as a surprise no doubt. But conservatives often pose as liberals in order to express outrageous things they would like to accuse liberals of but for which there is no proof. Your willingness to accept garbage accusations as 'proof' is amazing.

This is a zero as proof. And like the idle wind I respect it not.


yrs,
rubato

Are you saying that people lie male and female? And why would he lie in this case when he had no idea what I would do with his pornography? People usually lie for some outcome. And, you don’t think pornography is more popular on the left than the right, it is easier for me to see the facts from the center than you to see from the left.

[RayThom]

...
I think the ‘humor’ is sophomoric and highly offensive, but in all honesty, it doesn’t appear to me that his fingers are even actually touching her in that shot.

As to he forced kiss - that’s really gross and completely unacceptable. His apology is the best yet from any of the accused, but it troubles me that something like that happened and he doesn’t even remember it.

Denial and selective memory, perhaps.

I was raised in a strict Roman catholic family, with twelve years of catholic education, and persevered with all the associated guilt for far too long. I was told that, in the eyes of God, merely thinking about committing a sin was every bit as bad as going through with the act.

Ergo, Senator Al should not expect a pass even if his fingers aren't touching the presumably luscious breasts of Ms. Tweeden. Al should have known better, regardless of her apparently perfect measurements.

Look, but don't touch!

[Lord Jim]

it troubles me that something like that happened and he doesn’t even remember it.

Yeah, he admits to the thing he was caught on camera doing and therefore can't possibly deny, but seems to want to fudge and cast doubt on the accusation that there's no proof or witness for...(Implicit in the statement "I don't remember the rehearsal for the skit as Leeann does" is "maybe Leeann isn't remembering it accurately")

That having been said, I suspect Franken will survive this politically, assuming there are no more shoes to drop....

There's something else I want to say about this, (and this isn't aimed specifically at Franken, but at all the sleazy operators who have been getting outed, or those who may yet be named and shamed)...

It would be truly refreshing, if just ONCE, it turned out the people engaging in this grotesque and/or criminal behavior had apologized to their victim before their misdeeds were made public...

(Maybe there are those who did this, and consequently they haven't been outed)

Or one who recognized the need for and obtained professional help to overcome the impulses that drove their vile behavior before that vile behavior became public...

To date, I am not aware of a single instance in which this happened...

No, these arrogant SOBs never seem to see any need for apologies or therapy until they've got a big PR problem on their hands...(and even then they try to parse it to try to minimize the damage...)

[Lord Jim]

Donald J. Trump
✔
@realDonaldTrump

The Al Frankenstien picture is really bad, speaks a thousand words. Where do his hands go in pictures 2, 3, 4, 5 & 6 while she sleeps? .....
7:06 PM - Nov 16, 2017

What are you suggesting Donald? That he may have grabbed her by the pussy like you would have done?

[Burning Petard]

I am encouraged about all this. Seems to me it could portend a significant paradigm shift more important that 'equal pay for equal work'

A real, basic, abandonment of male privilege.

snailgate

[Scooter]

On my other site, I got this unsolicited PM form an identified far left” liberal” junior member. I replied with a polite no thank you, not for me and forwarded it to the administrator before deleting. I admit, it is not universal liberal thinking, but does it make you proud he is a liberal? Can anyone justify this kind of thinking? I copied only the first paragraph it gets increasingly worse further down you go:

“The game in Babe Safari was plentiful, but the competition was greedy. I was one of fifteen hunters allowed to take hunt in the Babe Safari, which only opens to hunting once every six months. As a hunter we could rape and kill as many of the hotties roaming the forest as we could find for six hours, and the one with the most kills would be placed in the Hall of Fame. So when the gates flung open I grabbed my guns, a backpack full of ammunition, and my gear, before I ran into the forest beyond, where hundreds of beautiful young women were waiting”.

The entire story can be found here. She has written a number of stories from the point of view of men who derive pleasure from inflicting all manner of horrific violence and sexual sadism against women and girls. One would have thought that someone who majored in literature, even in Louisiana, would have learned enough about narrative techniques to understand that authors may endow their fictional characters with any number or manner of beliefs, feelings and actions which the author does not share or endorse. If you didn't understand her meaning or why she chose to share it with you, you might have asked her about it, instead of talking trash about her here based on what you think you know.

[rubato]

"...

Are you saying that people lie male and female? And why would he lie in this case when he had no idea what I would do with his pornography? People usually lie for some outcome. And, you don’t think pornography is more popular on the left than the right, it is easier for me to see the facts from the center than you to see from the left.

I am saying that you lack the critical faculties to correctly identify pure bullshit when it is stinking to high heaven right under your nose.


yrs,
rubato

[ex-khobar Andy]

Now Charlie Rose.

[RayThom]

I feel this is just the beginning of our 'new normal' when it comes to celebrity/well-known men. These "outings" are about to change the entertainment, political, and corporate landscape as we know it. Many otherwise (mostly) good men relegated to the hall of shame and disdain due to their misogynistic behavior and perceived entitlements, fortunately, with no one to blame but themselves.

With names like Franken, and Rose, and Hoffman, it's now so plain to see how pervasive and perverse the culture of sexual harassment and abuse is ingrained in our male dominated society. Apparently it starts with boyhood and doesn't stop until the man's disgusting behavior is exposed by empowered women.

It's not a question of when the next shoe is going to drop -- it's going to be a whole damn shoe store caving in.

Right on!

[Lord Jim]

Now Charlie Rose.

And once again, we have the sudden desire to apologize combined with also trying to cast some doubt:

“It is essential that these women know I hear them and that I deeply apologize for my inappropriate behavior. I am greatly embarrassed. I have behaved insensitively at times, and I accept responsibility for that, though I do not believe that all of these allegations are accurate. I always felt that I was pursuing shared feelings, even though I now realize I was mistaken.”

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/11/ ... uct-251113

The women — three of whom spoke on the record — said Rose at various points between the 1990s and 2011 made unwanted sexual advances toward them, including groping their breasts, genitals and buttocks, appearing before them naked, and making lewd phone calls to them. Five spoke to the Post on condition of anonymity, which the newspaper said was due to Rose’s stature in the media business.

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/11/ ... uct-251113

When Rose says he doesn't "believe" that "all of these allegations are accurate" what is he saying? That he doesn't remember whether or not he took off his clothes and walked in on somebody naked, but thinks that he probably didn't?

Seems to me that's something a person would tend to recall with complete clarity if it had happened, and be absolutely certain about if it hadn't...

And when he says "I always felt that I was pursuing shared feelings", what could possibly have led him to that conclusion?

Were the women saying things to him like, "Charlie, I'd really like it if you would grab my ass", or, "Could you please make creepy dirty phone calls to me?"



pathetic....

[Big RR]

If you begin by thinking you're special. even irresistible, then the belief that you are only doing what they "wanted" follows close behind. I would veneture to guess that many of us thought this about the girls while we were in high school, but few carried it into adulthood, except for the self important jerks who continued to believe they were every woman's dream.

[Burning Petard]

The attention all this is getting IMNSHO is dragging into the open other aspects of white male privilege. A highly respected American 'statesman' once proclaimed that power is the best aphrodisiac. Just another way of stating what Trump said one could do when one is a star. There is now publicity for sociological research that identifies a significant group of males who somehow have separate categories for rape (morally wrong as well as criminal) and nonconsensual sex (which is morally ok not a concern for the law)

The convoluted processes of the human mind is a mystery.

snailgate

[Crackpot]

Err not really Kissinger was discussing a consensual act our president was talking about getting away with something non consensual.

It’s disappointing people don’t know the difference

[Big RR]

Perhaps CP, but I think it's more likely that he meant that power is so potent an aphrodisiac that women are incapable of resisting him, so consent is pretty pointless. That's what most of the powerful abusers, from Bill Clinton to Charlie Rose to the foreman of a crew apparently think.

Again it's like when in high school; with the so-called sexual revolution in full motion, I recall getting to second or third base with many a girl after a date or two--it was just expected (and the fact that the girls rarely resisted, except for a weakly playful pushing a hand away (they were kids too) helped to fuel that presumption that this is the way things are. By the time I got to college this changed and, while many other things happened and often went far further than in high school, I (and most men I knew) realized that groping was not a way to treat women absent some sort of mutual consent. These guys just never grew up and continue to think they can do what they want because they are irresistible because of their power, and they deserve to be smacked down hard for it.

[Lord Jim]

Perhaps CP, but I think it's more likely that he meant that power is so potent an aphrodisiac that women are incapable of resisting him, so consent is pretty pointless.

Big RR, do you have any evidence to support that?

My recollection is that that comment from Kissinger came as sort of a wry, humorous response when a friend asked him how a nerdy looking college professor like him was able to get so many good looking women to go out with him.

(Kissinger was serving as Nixon's National Security Advisor at the time. He was unmarried, and was photographed in public out on dates with a number of attractive women.)

I am unaware of any accusations of sexual impropriety by Kissinger.

[Big RR]

Jim--no I do not, but I do recall the guy being pretty full of himself. If he meant it as a joke, I do not recall it that way (but then it was a long time ago, so my recollection is not the greatest).

as for harassment, I seem to recall something about a flight attendant and Kissinger harassing her, but I don't recall what happened afterwards.

[Lord Jim]

I do recall the guy being pretty full of himself.

That brings up another observation I wanted to make...

When you look at the range of public figures who have been ensnared in this, there really doesn't seem to be any predictive relationship between the public persona of the person, and their proclivity to engage in sexual predator behavior...

At one end of the scale, you have bombastic "full of himself" types like Bill O'Reilly and Harvey Weinstein, and then at the other end you have people who have always come across as reserved, thoughtful, even mild-mannered...

Like Mark Halperin and Charlie Rose....(I see that Rose's accuser count is now up to 13...)

Obviously the one thing that all of these people have in common is an underlying arrogance and sense of entitlement, but who possess those qualities in a way that leads them to engage in sexual predator behavior is not something that can be easily determined by their public comportment...

And I'm sure there are plenty of arrogant people with a sense of entitlement who never engage in this behavior at all...(They have different outlets for expressing these character traits...)

[Guinevere]

Friends of friends on Facebook know Charlie Rose and say he is both arrogant and misogynistic. They were not surprised. Sad, but not surprised. I’m glad CBS canned him.

I hope this breaking dam of information finally helps people (especially men) understand the culture and obstacles that all women face every day.

[Big RR]

I'm sure there are plenty of arrogant people with a sense of entitlement who never engage in this behavior at all

While I have no doubt you're right, many/most of the men I know who fit that bill do tend to lean toward this sort behavior, precisely because they feel "entitled". It's kind of like a perc with the corner office or the anchor's desk.

guin--I share that hope, but I doubt it will last. I'll bet any such lessons will be promptly forgotten until the next rash of charges emerges.

[Lord Jim]

I think we've only seen the tip of the iceberg with revelations about this on Capitol Hill...

Since the mid-90s the government, (that's you and me, Mr. and Ms. Taxpayer) has paid out 15 million dollars to settle sexual harassment suits against members of congress and congressional staffers...(The reason that the records only go back to the mid-90s is because prior to that Congress had exempted itself from the relevant laws and regulations governing sexual harassment)

A lot of those have non-disclosure agreements, but I think it's probably only a matter of time now before some enterprising reporter gets a hold of the list of settled suits...

I'm sure a number of the suits involve staffers, or members of the House and Senate who are no longer in office, but any currently serving Representative or Senator involved should be having a very uneasy holiday season...