Hugo Chavez Croaks

[Big RR]

History will eventually judge him unencumbered by the propaganda. We'll see how that turns out. Yes, many in the US have scapegoated him, and he is probably not as bad as some have claimed, but many Venezuelans have also pointed out his faults and excesses. Just because some in the US try to paint him as a horrible and vindictive jerk, does not mean he is without blame (and I say this as someone who was entertained when he attacked W again and again). Personally, I see him a bit like Franco, brutal to his enemies (anyone who challenges or disagrees with him, o might do so), but trying to buy support of his people by occasionally giving special gifts to them--some (especially those on the bottom) lap that up and confuse it as sincere concern with their plight.

[Sean]

As a tribute to Chavez I've had his initials inscribed onto all of the taps in my house.

Me too, on my commode handles.

Your commode flushes Hugo??

[Joe Guy]

Your commode flushes Hugo??

No.

Your commode flushes after Hugo.

[Lord Jim]

Perhaps I've missed one or two, but off hand I can't think of a single example during the period of the Cold War, (except in Europe; where there are three examples...Spain , Portugal and Greece) from the time the Capo Regimes were established in Eastern Europe, in the late 40's, till the time Ferdinand Marcos was forced out during the Reagan Administration in the late 80's...

Where there was a transition from a right-wing pro-American, pro-Western dictatorship , to an independent democratic system....

On the other hand, I can produce numerous examples of where right-wing pro Western dictatorships were replaced in short order by left-wing pro Soviet regimes, during the Cold War...

Just off the top of my head...

China...Chiang Kai Shek's Kuomintang being replaced by The People's Revolutionary Party in 1949...

Cuba in 1959...

Syria, Libya, Egypt under Nasser...South Vietnam...

Angola, Mozambique, (after the Portuguese withdrew...) Somalia, Ethiopia..... Nicaragua...

(Then of course there was Iran, which moved from a secular pro-Western dictatorship to a theocratic dictatorship, bitterly opposed to the West... Funny how many of these unfortunate developments unfolded on Carter's Watch... must have been a remarkable coincidence...)

Since the Soviet Union was consigned to the dustbin of history, more people live in relative freedom today, than at any time in the whole of human experience...

Hundreds of millions across Eastern Europe and South America...

And there's one man we can thank for that....

[dales]

Hear, Hear!

[liberty]

Hear, Hear!

That is the sign of a man with integrity.

[Gob]

[Lord Jim]

[Big RR]

Jim--I'm not sure what your point is, but IMHO al it shows is that we were quicker to destabilize nascent democracies if they leaned to the left, like when we backed Pinochet over the democratically elected Allende or our behavior in many central american countries. They may have progressed to left wig dictatorships, they may have remained deomcracies where peple could exercise their own choice of direction, but such was never allowed by us. Even Korea and Vietnam showed how quick we were to replace popular left leaning leaders (I won't say dictators because mostly they didn't have all that power) with dictators more to our liking. And, at least during the cold war, these never progressed to real democracies--how could they when the opposition was brutally oppressed?

Indeed, how many pro soviet dictatorships progressed toward democracy during the cold war? None I can immediately think of.

As for the remainder of you post, I will remain silent rather than derail the discussion.

[Lord Jim]

Jim--I'm not sure what your point is

Big RR, my point was quite simple...

During The Cold War, the choice was almost never between, "Should we support a pro-western thugocracy, or should we withdraw that support and let democracy bloom?"

99 point nine nine percent of the time, the choice was, "should we support a pro-western thugocracy, or should we stand idly by, while an anti- Western, pro Soviet regime (the Soviets, as you may recall, had as their openly stated objective the intent to "bury us", and extinguish the whole concept of human liberty....and they were quite vigorous in their efforts on that score, as the historical record shows.... not to mention the 30,000 nuclear warheads they had aimed at us...) takes over?"

Since that despicable, existential global threat to humanity was brought down, we have enjoyed the luxury of no longer having the need to support every thug on the regional block, since there was no longer a well financed "Evil Empire" ready to jump into the breach....(particularly in Latin America)

This is a good thing...

We ought not be in the business of supporting thugocracies, and we ought to avoid doing so, whenever and wherever it is practical to avoid doing so....

I'm very unhappy about the fact that we have to continue to have close relations with regimes like Saudi Arabia, (where they have institutionalized pedophilia to the point that it's considered acceptable for 60 year old men to "marry" 12 year old girls, and slavery is common place) and "The People's Republic Of China", which is the most totalitarian regime on the face of the planet....

But one must be practical, and realistic, (just as was required during The Cold War) and hold one's nose...

And hope that one day, less nose holding will be required....

I have seen in my lifetime, (particularly with the collapse of the Soviet Union) developments on the global stage that imbue me with an enormous sense of faith and optimism about the future...

ETA:

Strop:

I'd really appreciate it if you would post a picture of Mr. Reagan from the 1950s touting cigarettes...that would certainly put me in my place and crush my arguments...

[rubato]

Some people are too ignorant to even begin to form a rational argument about anything:

The equation is this. Venezuela depends on the export of petroleum products for its economy. Venezuela subsidizes the cost of motor fuel in their own country which reduces exports and thus income. The low gas prices remove any incentive to drive more efficient cars, use public transportation or care about the environment so that all are in the shit. Congestion is horrible, pollution is horrible, and economic systems have grown up around this state of affairs so that any change is traumatic. In other words the government of Venezuela is fucked and the people of Venezuela are fucked because they are encouraged to pass off their externalized costs on everyone else.

The effects of low gas prices are uniformly bad on the country, the economy, their health and their future but stupid people apparently think its great!


http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... Id=6542617

At about a dime a gallon, Venezuela has the world's cheapest gas. The low prices are the result of a big government subsidy. Motorists love it. They're buying cars at a record clip. But the nation's capital, Caracas, is plagued with clogged streets and air pollution.

Copyright © 2006 NPR. For personal, noncommercial use only. See Terms of Use. For other uses, prior permission required.

JOHN YDSTIE, host:

The abundance of Venezuelan oil helps to make gasoline, in that country, the cheapest in the world - it's 17 cents a gallon. American's pay $2.23 a gallon on average. While Venezuela's gas prices may sound good, there's a big cost involved.

NPR's Juan Forero reports from Caracas.

(Soundbite of busy street)

JUAN FORERO: It's mid-afternoon just before rush hour. Ernesto Espinald's(ph) taxi is stuck in traffic, again.

Mr. ERNESTO ESPINALD (Taxi driver): (Through translator) It's horrible. Horrible. All day there's too much traffic. Before, it was only in the morning, midday and afternoon, now, it's all-day long.

FORERO: All over Caracas, shiny new SUVs, smoke-wheezing busses, trucks, and some of the oldest clunkers in Latin America - gas-guzzling, eight-cylinder wrecks jam the streets. What you have is a mess that's turned the roadways into perennial parking lots.

(Soundbite of engine)

FERERO: Flush with record-high oil revenues, Venezuela is a gas buyer's dream. You can fill up a 20-gallon tank with about 3.50, less than a bottle of imported spring water.

Unidentified Man: (Speaking foreign language)

FORERO: An attendant at a Texaco station checks under the hood of Maldecio Escatolini's(ph) Chevy Century. Escatolini admits it's a car not known for its fuel economy. He fills his tank, it comes to a couple of dollars.

Mr. MALDECIO ESCATOLINI (Caracas Resident): (Through translator) It's good on one hand, bad on the other. Good, because you spend less money; bad, because the government has to subsidize the gasoline it sells at that price.

FORERO: Few Venezuelans, though, could conceive of it being any other way. Certainly not Chavez's government. It spends handsomely on social programs and would find raising gasoline prices a non-starter, ahead of upcoming presidential elections. The opposition candidate, Manuel Rosales, seems surprised that I would even ask him if he would consider raising prices.

Mr. MANUEL ROSALES (Presidential Candidate, Venezuela): (Through translator) It has to be. Venezuela is a country rich in oil and it would be a great injustice for us to sell gasoline expensively to the people.

FORERO: If the subsidized gasoline were sold at market prices, it would bring in billions. But Venezuelans recall all too well the last time gasoline prices were dramatically hiked in 1989.

(Soundbite of street noise)

FORERO: The poor, hit hardest by fuel hikes, rose up. They looted shops and burned cars. Hundreds died. It was the first major uprising against market reforms in Latin America and it helped propel a little known army officer, Hugo Chavez, into politics.

After briefly considering raising prices, the Chavez government has opted to continue billion dollar subsidies. A few critics say the giveaway price contributes to pollution and generates more traffic.

Venezuelans are buying cars at a record pace now, as investments because of all the oil revenues trickling into people's pockets. On a recent day, Luis Saponte(ph) was inside SuperAuto(ph). Some cars here, Hummers and BMW's, go for well over $100,000.

Mr. LUIS SAPONTE (Caracas Resident): (Through translator) The gasoline here, is a gift. I won't deny it. That's why you see cars with eight cylinders, SUVs and trucks.

FORERO: Michael Pinfold(ph) is an economist in Caracas. He said that Venezuela would be better off spending its gasoline subsidies to promote mass transit.

Mr. MICHAEL PINFOLD (Economist, Caracas): It's almost ten billion dollars a year - where you have cheap gasoline, where you have price controls for parking lots, and where people don't pay for their parking spaces in the streets.

FORERO: Jesus Fevas(ph), a cabby, is grateful for the cheap gas. He spends less than four dollars to fill the tank of his 26-year-old jalopy.

Mr. JESUS FEVAS (Taxi Driver): (Through translator) A liter gives me three or four kilometers, depending on the traffic. And if there's no traffic, it's better because the gasoline lasts even longer.

FORERO: Not that Fevas worries about the cost.

Juan Forero, NPR News, Caracas, Venezuela.

Copyright © 2006 NPR. All rights reserved. No quotes from the materials contained herein may be used in any media without attribution to NPR. This transcript is provided for personal, noncommercial use only, pursuant to our Terms of Use. Any other use requires NPR's prior permission. Visit our permissions page for further information.

NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by a contractor for NPR, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of NPR's programming is the

yrs,
rubato

[Lord Jim]

Some people are too ignorant to even begin to form a rational argument about anything

I realize that rube, but nevertheless, I keep trying to help you out...

I'm just a starry-eyed optimist...

[Gob]

Now who was arguing that the way gas prices in Venezuela had been manipulated were a god thing again? Come on, hands up, who did it?

[rubato]

Cheap gas = stupid government.



http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/17/world ... d=all&_r=0

LAGOS, Nigeria — Nigeria swallowed a hard lesson on Monday that has been inflicted on governments of developing nations the world over for years: try cutting subsidies for gas and the populace will erupt in rage.
Related
Nigerians Protest Rise in Oil Prices (January 10, 2012)

Akintunde Akinleye/Reuters

A soldier stood watch Monday as Nigerians protested the removal of fuel subsidies, which were later partly restored.
Enlarge This Image
Sunday Alamba/Associated Press

A protest on a major road in Lagos, Nigeria, on Monday. Three-fourths of the country's population lives on about a dollar a day.

Faced down by thousands of demonstrators, demands for his removal and a weeklong general strike that paralyzed his fractious country, President Goodluck Jonathan abruptly gave in, partly restoring the fuel subsidy that — more than an Islamic insurgency in the north or a long-running conflict in the south — seemed to crystallize the frustrations of the people and draw them to the streets in outrage.

“Government appreciates that the implementation of the deregulation policy would cause initial hardships,” Mr. Jonathan said in a stiffly worded capitulation on Monday, after a week of refusing to back down.

Similar scenes have played out around the world in recent years, from Latin America to the Middle East to Asia, and the government response is frequently the same: give in quickly, despite the counsel of economists and international financial institutions that fuel subsidies are wasteful and distorting, sapping governments of money that could otherwise be used to improve education, public health or other needs.

The Nigerian government spends about $8 billion a year on fuel subsidies, and getting rid of them would be “an important first step” to shoring up the finances of one of Africa’s largest economies, according to a 2009 International Monetary Fund report.

But in resource-rich countries like Nigeria, with its enormous gap between rich and poor, subsidized gas is one of the few benefits trickling down from an infamously corrupt government that has pocketed billions of dollars in oil profits, with little to show for it.

For the poor — and three-fourths of this country’s population lives on about a dollar a day — the fuel subsidy means a cheap ride to the market. It means lower prices for the food they buy there. And it means some sense of ownership in a national resource, oil, in which roughly 80 percent of the economic benefit has flowed to 1 percent of the population, according to some estimates.

“It’s one of the few ways the urban and rural poor feel they benefit from this strategic resource,” said Michael J. Watts, an expert on the politics of oil at the University of California, Berkeley. “The fuel subsidy is experienced as one of the few things they get.”

That sentiment was strongly in evidence as the protests dwindled here on Monday. Under the rollback union leaders agreed to, gas in Nigeria will drop to about $2.27 a gallon from about $3.50 — higher than the $1.70 price before Jan. 1, but low enough to end the strike.

Still, many Nigerians were disappointed that Mr. Jonathan had not dropped the price all the way back down.

“We are not benefitting from this oil!” shouted Ali Mohammed, a motorcycle-taxi driver. “No lights, no roads, no hospitals. Make him reduce the price. We are suffering in this country.”

Hundreds of other young men milled about close by in what has been a center of the protest here: the New Afrika Shrine nightclub of the Afro-beat star Femi Kuti, son of the Nigerian musician and dissident Fela Kuti.

In a speech Monday morning, Mr. Kuti both incited and calmed the crowd listening at his feet amid clouds of marijuana smoke, expressing disgust with Nigeria’s institutions from his rickety wooden stage as supporters murmured their approval.

Later in his office, Mr. Kuti shouted at his television as he watched the labor leaders announce the end of the strike. “I told you those people would back down,” he said to his aides, looking up from the screen. As for the government, he said, “They prosecute people for being gay, but there is no law against stealing 14 million.”

Nigeria has seen similar tumult over the issue in the past, and it is hardly alone. In Bolivia, protesters burned photos of President Evo Morales and vandalized government buildings in December 2010, forcing Mr. Morales to withdraw his subsidy-cutting measure only days after introducing it.

In Venezuela, before the rise of Hugo Chávez, days of riots and hundreds of deaths followed a fuel price rise in 1989. President Chávez now controls one of the world’s most generous fuel subsidies, despite being critical of it.

In Jordan, an announcement last year that subsidies would be lifted helped inspire antigovernment demonstrations that forced a reversal. In Indonesia, a 30 percent increase in fuel prices in 2008 led to bloody rioting. Economists nonetheless praise that country for doing what others often do not: sweetening subsidy removal with cash programs that aid the poor.

Iran has employed a similar strategy, eliminating subsidized prices for fuel but cushioning the blow with cash payments of roughly $45 a month. The approach “was critical in preventing the kind of thing that we’re seeing happening in Nigeria,” said Djavad Salehi-Isfahani, an economics professor at Virginia Tech, adding that other Middle East countries shouldering subsidies they can ill afford, most notably Egypt, are looking at Iran’s plan as a possible model.

The International Monetary Fund and other global financial institutions do not like fuel subsidies, pointing out that the biggest benefits do not even go to the poor, but rather to the owners of large cars and big generators.

Yet it was not the wealthy in Nigeria, or even the small middle class, that forced Mr. Jonathan to back down most of the way.

“Even though most fuel subsidies go to the nonpoor, the fraction of their income that goes to fuel is much greater,” said Shanta Devarajan, the World Bank’s chief economist for Africa. “That’s why they feel the elimination of subsidies much more.”

On Monday in Lagos, the government appeared to be anticipating trouble, with army checkpoints on major roads, which were uncharacteristically deserted because of the strike.

In the end the day was calm, though a feeling of anger at the unions for calling off the strike, and at the government for not restoring the full subsidy, permeated Mr. Kuti’s hangarlike nightclub.

The protest movement here, though brief, came to encompass frustrations broader than the sudden rise in fuel prices, and some of the young men milling about on Monday wore “Occupy Nigeria” T-shirts.

The protesters made it clear that the fuel subsidy removal — abrupt and unaccompanied by any palliative measures — was seen as one more act of insensitivity by a government they criticized for favoring the wealthy.

“We are the people, but they are not listening to us,” said Tayo Sola, an unemployed university graduate. “So what is the meaning of democracy? You are not ready to listen. So how can you govern?”

[rubato]

Price of gas in Norway = highest in the world.

Norway = (one of the) highest stds of living.

Norway

Price per gallon of premium gasoline: $10.12
Price change since last quarter: +4.4%
Most-expensive-gas rank: #1
Pain-at-the-pump rank: #52

Norway is the only major oil producer with expensive gas. In the last quarter, the world's most valued gas got even pricier.

A strike over pensions by Norwegian energy workers reduced oil output by 15 percent and threatened to shut down production altogether before the government intervened. The strike, which lasted from June 24 to July 9, cost the government and companies $508 million, according to the Norwegian Oil Industry Association.

Norwegians pay the most of any nationality to fill up their tanks. That's because instead of subsidizing fuel at the pump, the country uses its oil profits for services such as free college education and savings for infrastructure improvements.

Resource-rich Norwegians absorb the high prices with relative ease. The average daily income is $272. The share of a day's wages needed to buy a gallon of gas is 3.7 percent.

yrs,
rubato

[Gob]

Yes, but who are you debating with, apart from yourself?

[rubato]

Still unable to read?

Sad.

LJ defended Chavez's policy of low gas prices. It is stupid and destructive, but so is LJ.

Try reading next time?

yrs,
rubato

[Gob]

Oh yes, Jim is a big fan of Chavez's policies.

What Chavez did, (and this is well trod ground for those consolidating a dictatorship) is use demagogic populism and plunder his country's strategic resources in order to provide short term goodies to his country's underclass in order to buy their support and enable him to solidify his authoritarian rule, while simultaneously relying on gangs of thugs to intimidate everybody else....

If you want to see where this road leads in the long run, take a good look at Zimbabwe....

[rubato]

Still having trouble with that reading thing?

Sorry. Your deficiencies are not my problem.

yrs,
rubato

[Jarlaxle]

Price of gas in Norway = highest in the world.

Norway = (one of the) highest stds of living.

Norway

Price per gallon of premium gasoline: $10.12
Price change since last quarter: +4.4%
Most-expensive-gas rank: #1
Pain-at-the-pump rank: #52

Norway is the only major oil producer with expensive gas. In the last quarter, the world's most valued gas got even pricier.

A strike over pensions by Norwegian energy workers reduced oil output by 15 percent and threatened to shut down production altogether before the government intervened. The strike, which lasted from June 24 to July 9, cost the government and companies $508 million, according to the Norwegian Oil Industry Association.

Norwegians pay the most of any nationality to fill up their tanks. That's because instead of subsidizing fuel at the pump, the country uses its oil profits for services such as free college education and savings for infrastructure improvements.

Resource-rich Norwegians absorb the high prices with relative ease. The average daily income is $272. The share of a day's wages needed to buy a gallon of gas is 3.7 percent.

yrs,
rubato

Then move there and quit bitching, pisshead! Put us out of your misery!