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And Again . . . 7 Dead, More Injured - College Shooting

Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 4:26 pm
by BoSoxGal
http://www.cnn.com/2014/05/24/justice/c ... ?hpt=hp_t1

Santa Barbara Sheriff Bill Brown called the suspect "severely mentally disturbed," according to KEYT.

I wonder at what point we will put some resources into a mental health system in this country?

At present, there is only one mental health professional for every 30,000 Americans.

Seems like there is an incident like this every week nowadays . . .

Re: And Again . . . 7 Dead, More Injured - College Shooting

Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 4:44 pm
by BoSoxGal
I meant to post this in General, not sure how I f*****d that up??

Re: And Again . . . 7 Dead, More Injured - College Shooting

Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 4:49 pm
by Lord Jim
When Daisy pops by she can move the thread for you.

Re: And Again . . . 7 Dead, More Injured - College Shooting

Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 4:51 pm
by Joe Guy

Re: And Again . . . 7 Dead, More Injured - College Shooting

Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 5:35 pm
by BoSoxGal
I couldn't stomach beyond 1:45 min. of that video.

It's too bad we aren't willing to spend on mental health resources the equivalent we spend on treating the illnesses related to mental health issues (across a broad spectrum), and on the various panaceas we employ to self-medicate a broad spectrum of mental health issues.

Imagine a society focused on positive mental health awareness, from a dedication to treating and learning from the seriously mentally ill, to addressing rampant substance abuse and suicides stemming from underlying mental health issues, to assisting the reasonably well-adjusted in achieving self-actualization.

Utopia.

Re: And Again . . . 7 Dead, More Injured - College Shooting

Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 7:23 pm
by MajGenl.Meade
bigskygal wrote:I meant to post this in General, not sure how I f*****d that up??
I was worried there for a minute..... :roll:

Re: And Again . . . 7 Dead, More Injured - College Shooting

Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 7:40 pm
by Daisy
Moved it for you :)

Re: And Again . . . 7 Dead, More Injured - College Shooting

Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 7:55 pm
by rubato
Unless my Gaydar is completely broken he is (was) a homosexual who is not 'out' to himself and hates women because they can be openly and naturally what his is (was) conflicted about being.


I don't really feel very sorry for him. He did not seem all that anguished about his confusion, just filled with hatred.


yrs,
rubato

Re: And Again . . . 7 Dead, More Injured - College Shooting

Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 8:51 pm
by Lord Jim
Unless my Gaydar is completely broken he is (was) a homosexual who is not 'out' to himself and hates women because they can be openly and naturally what his is (was) conflicted about being.
I don't get that at all. Not from the main article, or the one linked that talks about the guy in more detail. Seems to me he was just a loser who kept striking out, who became obsessed and deranged over it.

I agree with the central thesis that we should as a society put more emphasis on mental health treatment, but without knowing more details about this guy's situation, it's not possible to know if that would have helped in this specific case.

Here's something that definitely would have:
"The sheriff's office has obtained and is currently analyzing written and video evidence that suggests this was a premeditated mass murder," Hoover said.

Hoover apparently was referring to a YouTube video titled "Retribution" posted by a young man. In the nearly seven-minute video, the young man rants about women who ignored or rejected him over the past eight years and warns that he will "punish you all for it."


"Tomorrow is the day of retribution, the day in which I will have my revenge," the man says on the video.
When something this scary is posted on Youtube, why the hell doesn't Youtube contact the local police? If the Santa Barbara PD had been notified about this, they could have at least gone by and checked this guy out.

ETA:

Having now watched the video, (most of it anyway) I have even less understanding as to why this didn't set off any alarm bells at YouTube. The guy is pretty specific about what it is he's planning to do.

Re: And Again . . . 7 Dead, More Injured - College Shooting

Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 9:27 pm
by rubato
Watch the video he posted.

Hey scooter! Watch his video and tell me if you think he's homosexual or not.


yrs,
rubato

Re: And Again . . . 7 Dead, More Injured - College Shooting

Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 9:39 pm
by Lord Jim
After having watched the video I do see your point; it's certainly possible that the guy might be a repressed gay.

Re: And Again . . . 7 Dead, More Injured - College Shooting

Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 10:15 pm
by Joe Guy
I didn't think anything about his sexual orientation when I first viewed the video and after it being mentioned I don't see it as something important. He looked like the type who was very shy around others and not comfortable talking to girls/women.

I do feel sorry for him as it seems he had nobody that he could talk to about his feelings or commiserate with him. He needed some type of balance in his life that he obviously didn't have. Apparently nobody ever took him seriously when he made statements like he did in this video, although it's probably too early to be sure about that.

I'm sure there are hundreds or even thousands of kids that have had the same thoughts as him but never seriously wanted to kill anyone. He just gave up and lost control.

Very sad...

Re: And Again . . . 7 Dead, More Injured - College Shooting

Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 10:32 pm
by Lord Jim
I;m afraid I can't work up much sympathy for a guy who murders six people in cold blood, no matter what their personal problems may be...

Another thing that comes through loud and clear in that video is the narcissism that was central to his character...

I've just been watching a little bit about this on the news and apparently he was on the level about having no friends; so far they haven't been able to find any other students who ever remember even talking to him...(Where is his family?)

My guess is that he probably came across as a little "creepy"...

It seems to me that by putting this on Youtube he was almost asking to be stopped; (like a lot of these characters, he could simply have made the video to be found after his death.) but even then he got ignored...

And again, I'm not going to to absolve Youtube ; whenever something like that is posted it should send up a red flag.

Re: And Again . . . 7 Dead, More Injured - College Shooting

Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 11:12 pm
by Crackpot
You really think they watch everything posted?

Re: And Again . . . 7 Dead, More Injured - College Shooting

Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 11:16 pm
by BoSoxGal
The great thing about mass shootings as an example to use in arguing for a better mental health system is that we don't have to summon any sympathy for the perpetrators whatsoever in order to recognize that it's in our self-interests to find them before they act, and to treat them, as a means of preventing such tragedies being visited upon the innocent.

Re: And Again . . . 7 Dead, More Injured - College Shooting

Posted: Sun May 25, 2014 12:41 am
by Joe Guy
Lord Jim wrote:I;m afraid I can't work up much sympathy for a guy who murders six people in cold blood, no matter what their personal problems may be...

Another thing that comes through loud and clear in that video is the narcissism that was central to his character...
I'm sorry for the kid until he got to the point where he became a killer. If he had any friends or adults that really cared about him, his murder rampage might have only been some kind of sick fantasy and he would eventually have realized that.

Also, I believe his narcissistic words are just an act. Many people, especially young men, will say they are better than everyone else but are really just craving attention. It's kind of like a young boy making a girl mad so she will notice him. Not the greatest way to make a friend, but that's what some socially awkward kids do.

Re: And Again . . . 7 Dead, More Injured - College Shooting

Posted: Sun May 25, 2014 4:25 pm
by Lord Jim
It appears he definitely had people who cared about him:
UCSB Shooter Elliot Rodger Refused His Psychiatric Medicines, His Parents Now In Hiding

The accused UCSB mass murderer had been prescribed, but refused to take, psychiatric medication to help with his “extreme paranoia,” a source close to Elliot Rodger‘s family tells RadarOnline.com exclusively.

The 22-year-old, who law enforcement officials say killed six people before he died in a shoot out with deputies from the Santa Barbara County Sheriff ‘s Office, also “heard voices.”

His parents, Hollywood director Peter Rodger and his ex-wife, Li Chin, are now in hiding, staying at a hotel, as they try to come to grips with what their son is believed to have done.

“Elliot has always been troubled and couldn’t express himself,” the source tells us.

“His parents did everything they could to help him. It seemed that Elliot suffered from extreme paranoia and heard voices, but it was impossible to properly diagnose because he just wouldn’t talk. Having been prescribed psychiatric medication, Elliot refused to take it.

“Before moving from L.A. to Santa Barbara, he had been seeing a mental health professional for years, and his parents got a team of doctors for him to continue to see after his move.
Their hearts break for the victims and their families.”

There was a reluctance to let Rodger move to Santa Barbara, but he was insistent, the source says.

“He thought that moving to Santa Barbara would make him happy, and his parents obliged. At first Elliot did really well academically in school at Santa Barbara City College (a community college about 30 minutes from the University of California Santa Barbara campus), but he had a hard time fitting in with the party scene. With that, Elliot became more isolated, and his grades began to suffer.”

In an incredibly chilling video he uploaded to YouTube less than 24 hours before his killing spree, Roger spoke of his frustration at being rebuffed by women. Speaking with little emotion, while seated in his car and looking straight into a camera, he said “I am the superior one” as he wondered aloud why women didn’t find him attractive.

His solution was, he said, to go on a shooting spree.

“I’m going to enter the hottest sorority house of UCSB and I will slaughter every single spoiled, stuck-up, blonde slut that I see inside there. All those girls that I’ve desired so much, they would’ve all rejected me and looked down on me as an inferior man if I ever made a sexual advance towards them.”

His lethal rampage actually began prior to the shooting, Sheriff Bill Brown revealed late on Saturday.

Rodger stabbed three males in his apartment before taking to the streets in a black BMW. There he fatally shot two female and one male UCSB students. Rodger also hit two bicyclists with his car and seriously injured others with gunfire.


His parents were concerned about Rodger’s postings on social media even prior to his YouTube “Retribution” video and had contacted law enforcement in Santa Barbara, the source tells Radar.

According to the Rodger family attorney, Alan Shifman, the family contacted local authorities to do a “welfare check” on Elliot just a few weeks ago and cops found him to be “perfectly polite, kind and wonderful human,”
but seemingly without a girlfriend or friends.

Only two years earlier, Elliot was photographed in a much different setting, on the red carpet at the premiere of The Hunger Games, alongside his father who was the second unit director on the film.

However, our insider reveals, “Elliot never fit in at school in Santa Barbara, and certainly not in his dad’s Hollywood glamorous world. He was extremely smart, and loved to play video games. He wasn’t prone to violence at all. His parents have been in contact with the Santa Barbara Sheriff’s Office and have indicated they will fully cooperate with the investigation.”
http://radaronline.com/exclusives/2014/ ... in-hiding/

So this was a case of privileged kid, who had access to all the mental health help one could imagine, and whose family was aware of his problems and fully engaged in dealing with them, and still this happens...

In our society there's nothing that can compel a legal adult with mental problems to deal with them constructively unless they've already taken some kind of anti social action. And aside from a fist fight at a frat party last summer, there was apparently no prior history of violence.

I watched the Santa Babara sheriff's press conference yesterday, and he talked about the interview his deputies had with Rodgers on April 30th after they were contacted by his parents. He said that based on his behavior at the time they determined there were no legal grounds at that time to carry out a "51/50" (an involuntary temporary mental hospital commitment).

And there probably weren't...

This is a real conundrum for a free society. Obviously we don't want to make it easy for the authorities to put people in mental hospitals against their will. But by having very narrow standards under which this is permissible, we're pretty much guaranteed that we will continue to have tragedies like this from time to time.

Another thing that has come out is this 140 page "manifesto" that he wrote. I haven't read it (and will certainly never read the whole thing.) But from what's been reported, it appears that this whole "rejection" thing was largely in his head. He wasn't approaching girls and getting turned down for dates; he apparently had worked out in his mind that they were rejecting him, even though he never even spoke to them.

This explains something else that didn't make much sense; he's not a bad looking guy, he had a nice a car and cash, he was socially well connected, how could it be that no girls would go out with him? Apparently his lack of confidence and social skills were so severe that he never asked.

And I'm sure these handicaps also probably caused him to give off a kind of "creepy" vibe. (If he was hanging around on the edge of parties staring at girls, never interacting with anyone or making conversation, that was probably pretty off putting.)

Re: And Again . . . 7 Dead, More Injured - College Shooting

Posted: Sun May 25, 2014 6:44 pm
by Lord Jim
I've also been giving some more thought to what likely would have happened if the police had somehow become aware of the final video...

What would they have done? What could they have done?

Well, maybe they would have gone back to talk to the guy again. And all he would have had to have done was convince them, in the short time they spent with him, that he really wasn't a danger to himself or others. Which is something he could probably have done pretty easily. (With all of the problems he had, lack of intelligence wasn't one of them. And this is a guy who's had a lifetime of practice at hiding the snakes in his head from others.)

For example, he could have said that the whole thing was made up; that he was just portraying a character he had in mind for a screenplay idea he had. (Given his background, that would have been a perfectly credible story.)

After the event, the fact that he is so calm and matter of fact in the video makes it all the more chilling. But before he went on his rampage, that could be seen a supporting the idea that this wasn't something he was "really" planning to do. Afterall, he certainly doesn't appear agitated or particularly distraught in the video.

Re: And Again . . . 7 Dead, More Injured - College Shooting

Posted: Sun May 25, 2014 6:48 pm
by BoSoxGal
I agree in part with your comments, and disagree in part, LJ.

But I'll also start with the disclaimer that I don't pretend to have the answers, I just have a lot of concerns based on almost 20 years of working with folks with mental health issues and seeing the dearth of resources available to them - in communities from New England to the Southwest to here in Montana.

In Andrew Solomon's book The Noonday Demon he discusses his own battle with depression, and extrapolates from there to a wide-ranging discussion of the disease in varying social contexts. Relevant to this discussion is the statistic he cites early in the book, that only about 4% of people with mental illness are ever both properly diagnosed and properly treated, with medication and/or other approaches. Andrew Solomon is the son of a wealthy family, and had the means to access the best mental health care - but in a county with one provider for every 30,000 people, and in the context of limited research fund dedicated to the causes of mental illness, even the best providers available to the wealthiest of patients are limited in their ability to address the experience of mental illness in a meaningful way.

And I take your point with regard to the limitations in our law with regard to imposing treatment against the will of the patient. I can't get into specifics of cases, but suffice to say that I have seen several cases wherein I believed individuals should have been recommended for commitment, were not, and later engaged in either serious criminal conduct or suicidal conduct. I don't hold the mental health providers to blame, because the statutes are so specific and the bar is very high for commitment - for good reason, to protect folks who in the old days might have been committed by family or law enforcement against their will and absent true need.

And I don't believe that even with changes to our mental health system, we will ever reach a point where all incidents like this one can be avoided. But I do think with so many of these incidents happening - routinely, it seems - and with so many of them involving perpetrators with mental health issues, we should be using them as a basis for an argument to commit far greater community resources (i.e., taxes) to mental health concerns than what we currently do.

Re: And Again . . . 7 Dead, More Injured - College Shooting

Posted: Sun May 25, 2014 9:39 pm
by Gob
Lord Jim wrote: In our society there's nothing that can compel a legal adult with mental problems to deal with them constructively unless they've already taken some kind of anti social action. And aside from a fist fight at a frat party last summer, there was apparently no prior history of violence.

I watched the Santa Babara sheriff's press conference yesterday, and he talked about the interview his deputies had with Rodgers on April 30th after they were contacted by his parents. He said that based on his behavior at the time they determined there were no legal grounds at that time to carry out a "51/50" (an involuntary temporary mental hospital commitment).

And there probably weren't...
A call me and the team I work for have to make all too often. We have something called PTO (Patient Treatment Order,) about 50% of our caseload are on them. If need be we will daily visit to ensure meds are being taken, if the patient client refuses them, we can initiate them being taken to hospital, against their wishes if need be.

Not the nicest part of the job, but better safe than sorry.