Plan B Forum

I posted the other day about the Santa Barbara shooting, so didn't want to post about Moncton, NB, CA and Seattle, too.

But nobody else did, either.

Did you all vote to ignore mass shootings, or are we all just inured to them now?

I was going to start a thread about the Seattle shooting, but when I think about it the reason I didn't (and I'm kind of ashamed to admit this) is because no one was killed...(Which was largely due to the heroic actions of one person who had the guts to walk right up to this guy and pepper spray him.)

BSG, I don't think you were on the board at the time of the Newtown Massacre, but if you read what I said at that time you will find that even though I am a staunch supporter of the Second Amendment, I was pretty unsparing in my criticism of leadership of the NRA....

To me it is outrageous and profoundly depressing that we can't even get something like universal background checks passed through Congress when polls show consistently that 85-90 percent of Americans...across all demographics, Republicans, Democrats, Independents, gun owners, even NRA members...support it...

But I understand the reason for this from a political standpoint; even though only 10-15 percent of the electorate opposes this, that 10-15 percent will show up at the polls to vote , while the other 85-90 percent don't vote solely on that issue...

The political class in Washington, (and the state capitols) understand this fact, and vote accordingly.

The one thing that the leadership of the NRA has claimed that they support is making it more difficult for seriously mentally ill people to obtain firearms; but then they oppose every piece of legislation that would help to accomplish this...

The fact of the matter is that Wayne LaPierre and Larry Pratt, and the rest of the leadership of the "gun lobby" have become nothing but shameless whores for the gun manufacturers; the organizations they supposedly represent long ago stopped representing honest gun owners...

Their political strategy is as clear as it is repulsive; their whole approach is built around pandering to the most paranoid folks in that 10-15 percent (the ones who think the government is going to show up at their door to take away their guns) and whipping them into a fearful frenzy so that they'll show up to vote against anyone who doesn't support every single element of their agenda...

And then making sure that the politicians understand that they can do this effectively (look at what happened in those recall elections in Colorado; the smaller the electorate and voter turnout, the more effective this strategy is)

I have to laugh when I see folks like Sue talking about repealing The Second Amendment...

If you can't even get a modest piece of legislation like universal background checks, that is supported by 85-90 percent of the American people, what possible chance would you have of getting something through all the hurdles of the amendment process that most Americans(rightly in my view) oppose?

The bottom line is that until some meaningful percentage of the 85-90 percent who support common sense firearm measures start voting on that issue with the same single-mindedness as the 10-15 percent who oppose them, nothing is going to get done.

Actually, one person died in the Seattle shooting and he was a recent graduate from a Portland area high school. To BSG's point, the story got very little press here.

I'm sorry to hear that Long Run...

I watched some of the coverage about it right after it happened, and at that point no one had died.

I'm surprised to learn that the story got very little press in Seattle. If there were a shooting like that here on a San Francisco college campus, I'm pretty sure the local press would be all over it. (When that guy went on a shooting spree in an office building here a few years ago, it got huge local coverage.)

Maybe the thinking now is that by minimizing the coverage you don't provide attention for potential copycat sickos....

Clarifying that it got little press here in Portland. I assume it received more attention in Seattle. Certainly the story the hero is worthy of more notice.

I apologize Long Run, for some reason I had it in my head that you live in Seattle...

I just read that some nutjob tried to attack a courthouse in Georgia last week (this also didn't seem to make very big headlines):

http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow ... story.html

I'm laying over in SLC on my way to a CLE conference in San Diego; CNN is covering another shooting in Las Vegas, NV. Two cops shot to death while eating lunch, then another victim in front of Walmart, then the shooters killed themselves.

God Bless America and her precious 2nd amendment.

The Beeb makes a boob...

One dead in Las Vegas shooting

Two people have shot and wounded two police officers in the US city of Las Vegas, before killing another person and then shooting themselves.

The incident began in a pizza cafe at 11:30 (18:30 GMT) on Sunday, when a man and a woman shot at two police officers who were having lunch.

They then entered a Wal-Mart shop nearby and shot one person dead, before committing suicide.

The condition of the injured police officers is unknown.

2 Las Vegas Cops Shot To Death; Shooters Say 'Revolution' Underway

Five are dead in a shooting incident in Las Vegas, including the two shooters, police said.

Two gun-toting assailants staged an ambush Sunday at a CiCi's Pizza on the east side of Las Vegas, killing two police officers eating lunch, the Las Vegas Review-Journal reported.

Witnesses told police the shooters shouted: "This is the start of a revolution," then grabbed the officers' ammunition and fled to a nearby Walmart where they shot at least one other person as 30 to 40 others ran out the back of the store, the Las Vegas Sun reported.

Deputy Sheriff Kevin McMahill told reporters one of the shooters was a tall white man who yelled, "Everybody get out," before shooting. He said the man and the second shooter, a woman, apparently had a suicide pact. They went to the back of the store and shot themselves, McMahill said.

Police said the pair were carrying large bags. The bomb squad was called but investigators did not say what was in the bags.

http://www.ibtimes.com/2-las-vegas-cops ... ay-1595966

The focus on "mass" shootings (even those that are not actually "mass," like Moncton, Las Vegas and Seattle) is entirely disproportionate to the actual problem with guns in the U.S. While the incidents mentioned here may or may not draw extended news coverage or public notice, the real problem is the more than 1,000 gun homicides every month, plus an additional 1,500 gun suicides. Gun deaths are the equivalent of ten jumbo jets crashing out of the sky every month. Mass shootings aside, there are over 30 gun homicides Every. Goddam. Day. (That's one jumbo jet crash every week.) Where is all the pearl-clutching outrage about that????

Repeal the Second Amendment. Make gun possession highly restricted and generally illegal. Fewer guns = fewer gun deaths. It really is just that simple.

sue--do you honestly think the Congress and states would ever repeal the 2nd amendment? I think Jim has it right; when even moderate gun control measures like mandatory background checks, or not allowing persons convicted of offenses involving violence to possess guns are met with significant opposition, I don't think we could ever muster the votes to repeal the amendment.

Far better to deal with what is possible and advocate for reasonable limitations than to tilt at windmills; I don't think we could ever get a repeal in my lifetime or that of my children.

Yes, BigRR, I think repealing the Second Amendment is possible, and I think the time to do it is here. I have been rather pleasantly surprised by the number of people I have encountered over the last two or three years saying the same thing -- particularly since the Newtown, CT shootings.

I think the real obstacle is getting past the gun-nut hysteria. But with idiocy like "Open Carry Texas" and Wayne LaPierre's dumb-ass talking points, they have been very effectively marginalizing themselves as obvious lunatics.

The overwhelming majority of people are in favor of sensible gun regulation. The problem is the Second Amendment, or at least its interpretation by the Supreme Court: as long as gun ownership is recognized as an individual right, truly effective gun regulation will be almost certainly unconstitutional. The only way to get the sensible gun regulation that (almost) everyone wants is to get rid of the Second Amendment.

Remember, it was only a few short years ago that advocating marriage equality was tilting at windmills, because there was such strident opposition from certain quarters. Then people came to their senses.

I think that a repeal of the 2nd amendment would even scare many strong gun control advocates into believing it is the first step toward losing all of our rights. If any politician were to bring the idea up, he/she would be shot down quickly...

Well Sue, you may be correct, but I don't think so. And, FWIW, I don't think effective gun legislation would be unconstitutional--many states have pretty strict regulations on ownership (and the ability to carry) that pass constitutional muster; it's just that a lot of states won't enact anything even remotely resembling the restrictions in those "liberal enclaves". If there is a will to do so, we can have pretty significant legislation nationwide, but I doubt that is here.

I think your comparison with marriage equality is pretty apt; while many states have enacted marriage equality laws, many have done the opposite; it is in the courts, not the local legislatures, that the battle is being fought. And I would bet a marriage equality amendment to the constitution would have no real chance of passing and being enacted (hell, we couldn't even get an equal rights amendment passed in the 70s when people took that more seriously as well).

Joe Guy wrote:I think that a repeal of the 2nd amendment would even scare many strong gun control advocates into believing it is the first step toward losing all of our rights.

Why? How is changing a rule that concerns only guns "the first step toward losing all of our rights"??? How does restricting gun ownership have any effect at all on freedom of speech, religion, assembly or the press, or limitations on search and seizure, or the right to due process, or prohibitions on double jeopardy and self-incrimination, or the right to compensation for property, a speedy trial, an impartial jury, confrontation of witnesses and assistance of counsel, or the prohibition on cruel and unusual punishments?

This is exactly the kind of hysterical knee-jerk reaction I am talking about.

What this country needs is a good lesson in civics, and a campaign to repeal the Second Amendment may be just the way to do it.

Sue, I love your ideas about repealing the 2nd Amendment, but I agree that they are untenable in the current political climate. I live among the gun zealots, and they truly believe that the federal government is trying to control/manipulate every aspect of their lives, and the ONLY thing standing between them and that fate is their GUNS. The only thing that protects the Constitution is the 2nd Amendment - it means more than any other, because without it, the rest would be revoked by government decree in short order.

Clive Bundy, et al.

To be honest, in the current political climate in my county, I spend every day at the office on edge - we have several Sovereign citizens not unlike the one in GA who attempted to attack his local courthouse - and zero security. It frightens me to know so intimately how crazy some of the people carrying concealed weapons really are.

Sue U wrote: Why? How is changing a rule that concerns only guns "the first step toward losing all of our rights"???

Many people would see the repeal of the 2nd amendment as the government taking away the right to defend ourselves and see that as eliminating our ability to protect the other rights that we have.

It very likely would convince a lot of non-gun nuts to become more interested in protecting the right to own firearms.