Another Police Shooting...

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Lord Jim
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Another Police Shooting...

Post by Lord Jim »

Another riot:

Stores Looted After Vigil For Mo. Teen Shot And Killed By Police


by The Associated Press
August 11, 2014 4:19 AM ET

A day of anger over a fatal police shooting of an unarmed black man in suburban St. Louis turned to mayhem as people looted businesses, vandalized vehicles and confronted police who sought to block off access to several areas of the city.

The tensions erupted after a candlelight vigil Sunday night for 18-year-old Michael Brown, who police said was shot multiple times the previous afternoon after a scuffle involving the officer, Brown and another person in Ferguson, a predominantly black suburb of the city.

Afterward, a convenience store was looted. Several other stores along a main road near the shooting scene were broken into, including a check-cashing store, a boutique and a small grocery store. People also took items from a sporting goods store and a cellphone retailer, and carted rims away from a tire store.

TV footage showed streams of people walking out of a liquor store carrying bottles of alcohol, and in some cases protesters were standing atop police cars or taunting officers who stood stoic, often in riot gear.

Other witnesses reported seeing people vandalize police cars and kick in windows. Television footage showed windows busted out of a TV station van.


Police were having a hard time catching looters because crimes were happening at several locations in Ferguson and spilling into neighboring communities, Mayor James Knowles told KTVI-TV. It wasn't immediately clear how many arrests were made. Authorities set up some blockades to try to keep people from the most looted areas.

While St. Louis County Executive Charlie Dooley said that there were no reports of injuries as of about 11 p.m., there also were scattered reports of assaults into the early morning. Pat Washington, a spokeswoman for Dooley, there was one instance she knew of in which tear gas was used. There were scattered media reports of gunfire but authorities did not immediately confirm any.

"Right now, the small group of people are creating a huge mess," Knowles told KTVI-TV. "Contributing to the unrest that is going on is not going to help. ... We're only hurting ourselves, only hurting our community, hurting our neighbors. There's nothing productive from this."

As the investigation of Brown's death progresses, "we understand people want to vent their frustrations. We understand they want to speak out," Knowles added. "We're going to obviously try to urge calm."

Earlier in the day, a few hundred protesters had gathered outside Ferguson Police headquarters. At one point, many of them marched into an adjacent police building, some chanting "Don't shoot me" while holding their hands in the air. Officers stood at the top of a staircase, but didn't use force; the crowd eventually left.

County Police Chief Jon Belmar said the shooting occurred after an officer encountered two people - one of whom was Brown - on the street near an apartment complex in Ferguson.

Belmar said one of the men pushed the officer back into his squad car and a struggle began. Belmar said at least one shot was fired from the officer's gun inside the police car. Ferguson Police Chief Tom Jackson said authorities were still sorting out what happened inside the police car. It was not clear if Brown was the man who struggled with the officer.

The struggle spilled out into the street, where Brown was shot multiple times. Belmar said the exact number of shots wasn't known, but "it was more than just a couple." He also said all shell casings found at the scene matched the officer's gun. Police are still investigating why the officer shot Brown, who police have confirmed was unarmed.
http://www.npr.org/2014/08/11/339482090 ... -by-police

I don't know what the facts of the shooting are, there are two very different versions, hopefully it will be sorted out. Any way you cut it it's a real tragedy; the kid was scheduled to start college the day after this happened. If it's established that this was an unjustified police shooting, then I hope they throw the book at the cop.

But that having been said, what really irritated me about the coverage of this yesterday, were the number of talking heads who were on the news channels trying to make excuses for the violence and thievery. A lot of bull stuff about " Well it was wrong, but it was understandable" and "This was an expression of outrage that had boiled over"....

Yeah, it's "understandable" alright; but not in the way they meant...

A relatively small group of thugs, thinking they could take advantage of the police being pre-occupied with the protest vigil, decided to raise hell and steal stuff. Very easy to understand.

The reason people loot stores isn't because "their outrage has boiled over"; it's because they want to steal stuff; full stop. They want to steal it either to have it for themselves or to sell. This is why people loot...

What on earth did the owner of the convenience store, or the sporting good store, or the liquor store, or the tire store have to do with a cop shooting a teenager? Sorry, I'm just not going to buy the "To express my outrage over this unjust shooting, I'm going to steal a set of tire rims and a case of rum" argument...

If the violence had been limited solely to the attacks against police property, maybe a case could be made for this "outrage boiling over" argument...But what did the TV station whose van was vandalized have to do with it? What was their "outrage" against them?

Shame on those who attempted to rationalize this. What they should have done, (and some did) was to condemn the violence and thievery unconditionally, and then go to talk about how it wasn't representative of the community. Rather than sympathizing with these thugs, and making excuses for them, they should have expressed anger with them for making the community look bad, and for diverting attention from the issue of the shooting.
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rubato
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Re: Another Police Shooting...

Post by rubato »

Gosh, black people sure get angry easily. I wonder why?


http://www.vox.com/videos/2014/6/2/5771 ... nversation


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Re: Another Police Shooting...

Post by Lord Jim »

Gosh, black people sure get angry easily. I wonder why?
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rubato
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Re: Another Police Shooting...

Post by rubato »

Some of the context for community anger

— There's a history of police violence against young black men, and the shooting takes place at a time when this perennial topic was already being widely discussed: New Yorker Eric Garner, an unarmed black man, was killed in July after police put him in a chokehold by police. The incident, which was caught on video, caused an outcry against the New York Police Department — especially after Garner's death was officially ruled a homicide. Mayor Bill de Blasio eventually agreed to a review of the department's training procedures.

— The frustration and anger in Ferguson likely goes beyond the killing of Brown. Ferguson is like many cities in America: police disproportionately stop and arrest black residents. While 67 percent of Ferguson is black, 86 percent of all traffic stops and 92 percent of all arrests are of black residents, according to state report on racial profiling obtained by Buzzfeed. But black residents of Ferguson who are stopped by police are less likely to be carrying contraband than white residents are.

— There's also a lot of anger around how the media portrays young men who are killed. Over the weekend, the hashtag #IfTheyGunnedMeDown, which was trending on Twitter on Sunday night, captured the divide between how young black men see themselves and how the media sees them:

If you never look for the truth you never have to see it.



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Re: Another Police Shooting...

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And all of that would provide an "understandable" rationale for stealing from people who had nothing to do with it...........because???

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Jarlaxle
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Re: Another Police Shooting...

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Because it's RUBE! No more need be said.
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Re: Another Police Shooting...

Post by BoSoxGal »

December 16, 1773, the Sons of Liberty destroy 92,000 lbs of British East India Co. tea worth $1,700,000 in today's dollars.

Nobody took any of the tea for personal enjoyment, so we revere this extreme act of criminal mischief - but how is it really any different? It's a protest of those oppressed against those who benefit from the oppressive regime - the British East India Co. wasn't the 'culprit' in those days, it was King George - but they looted the tea, and dressed like Mohawk Indians whilst doing so (so, not even a true act of civil disobedience).

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, etc. I'm not condoning the looting, but what happens to a dream deferred? Does it explode?
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
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Lord Jim
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Re: Another Police Shooting...

Post by Lord Jim »

but how is it really any different?
Looks to me like you answered your own question:
Nobody took any of the tea for personal enjoyment
Plus of course, destroying the tea was an act against the British government, which was seen as the oppressive agent...

What did the folks who own the QuickTrip do to deserve this?
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter
Oh, I would never elevate the people who did this to the level "terrorist"; they're common hoodlums...

There were a dozen stores robbed and vandalized, which collectively employed a significant number of people in the local neighborhoods who will now be out of work at least temporarily (and some permanently if some stores chose not to re-open) so in addition to thievery for personal pleasure and/or gain, these thieves and vandals have also inflicted pain and injury on their own neighbors...

I'm sorry, but I have a hard time imagining a more in-apt analogy...

I doubt very seriously that the thugs who participated in this were motivated in the slightest by shooting; they saw an opportunity and they took it.

At a community forum Monday, national NAACP President Cornell William Brooks demanded justice while condemning the violence and looting.

"Martin Luther King did not live and die that we might steal and lie in the name of justice in the middle of the night," said Cornell. "He lived and died that we might seek justice in the middle of the day."
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... /13884695/

Good for him. He's not equivocating or making excuses.
Last edited by Lord Jim on Thu Aug 14, 2014 2:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Another Police Shooting...

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and dressed like Mohawk Indians whilst doing so (so, not even a true act of civil disobedience).
what, are only acts in accordance with Thoreau's principles true acts of civil disobedience? I agree he sets forth a compelling case for his principles, but if one seeks to avoid the consequences does it suddenly cease to be an act of civil disobedience? I don't think so.

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Re: Another Police Shooting...

Post by Long Run »

I agree with Jim. This is not so different than most significant First Amendment gatherings (think WTO), where the scum infest the gathering and use the cover to raise hell, thereby bringing the whole message of the legitimate protesters into question.

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Lord Jim
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Re: Another Police Shooting...

Post by Lord Jim »

The mother of the young man who was killed certainly doesn't sees the looting as "understandable":
Lesley McSpadded, Brown's mother, says she is "furious" by the riots, calling them "disrespectful" to her son's memory.

A KTVI-TV news anchor reports having a personal conversation with McSpadden, in which she stated that the riots were "not doing any good at all for the cause to seek justice" for her son and peace for her family.

"I want all the looting to stop. I do not endorse any rallies. Anybody who is doing this kind of looting is not on my side. I am calling for people to stop-- this this is not helping me out one bit," she told the reporter.
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Re: Another Police Shooting...

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We're now on day, (or night ) four of this...
Police dispense tear gas at demonstrators on West Florissant Avenue

2 hours ago • From staff reports

Shortly after 9 p.m., police dispensed tear gas at the crowd standing on West Florissant Avenue. About 50 demonstrators stood in the middle of the street near the Quik Trip, with several hundred people on the side streets.

After giving people several verbal warnings to leave the area or face arrest, police threw more than a dozen sound canisters at the crowds. The canisters exploded close to people, emitted a loud boom and smoke and sparks. They made an ear-splitting noise.

Some people picked up the canisters and threw them back at police. Then the police deployed tear gas.

One young woman screamed to fleeing members of the crowd not to be cowards. "We have to stand and fight here right now!" she screamed.
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crim ... d6cf1.html

Okay, it should have been obvious before now that the local authorities, for whatever reason, are not equipped to handle this situation...

Either logistically or politically...

Where is the Governor? Where is the Missouri state Attorney General? Why aren't they holding press conferences, announcing their plans for dealing with this situation and investigation?

Why don't you see these folks showing up with local community leaders on television to assure the local community that a full investigation will be conducted?

That is what generally happens in situations like this...

The fact that this isn't happening suggests that this thing is being very badly bungled by everyone involved...

There is no authority figure in this mix standing up and saying, "we'll figure out what happened here"...
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rubato
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Re: Another Police Shooting...

Post by rubato »

Black people get so ANGRY when their children are murdered under color of authority you'd think it happened all the time! It's not like police go around beating black people senseless with no punishment or molest black people for driving a car or walking down the street.


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Re: Another Police Shooting...

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Meanwhile, back at the meaningful discussion...

So, what has the governor been doing?
While Ferguson Situation Goes Out Of Control, Missouri Governor Tweets About School Board Meeting

Missouri Gov. Jay Nixon (D)[ That's "D" as in "Democrat" and Governor Nixon is no relation to you-know-who...]came under fire Wednesday for allegedly being conspicuously absent as a SWAT team responded to protests over a police shooting in Ferguson.

The city has been the scene of nightly protests since police officers there shot and killed an unarmed, African-American teenager named Michael Brown on Saturday. Law enforcement personnel have responded to the protesters with riot gear, rubber bullets, and tear gas. Police have said Brown attacked the officer involved in the shooting and tried to take his gun. Resident of Ferguson who are protesting have accused police of routinely engaging in racial profiling.

On Wednesday evening, SWAT teams attempted to disperse peaceful protesters and two reporters were arrested. In the afternoon, Nixon used his official Twitter account to post about attending the meeting of a 4H chapter at the University of Missouri in Columbia. Hours later, Nixon tweeted about a school board meeting in Springfield.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/missouri ... z3AL7neKm9
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Re: Another Police Shooting...

Post by Sue U »

Uh, this is a municipal matter regarding a local police force. The governor has no jurisdiction to act -- unless it's to call in the National Guard -- and the last thing the local government needs is some state politico stomping in with troops. This is the mayor's job (and the city council's), and I understand the mayor has been out on the streets trying to keep things from escalating out of control (and urging Al Sharpton to stay away).
GAH!

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Re: Another Police Shooting...

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Resident of Ferguson who are protesting have accused police of routinely engaging in racial profiling
First of all, why can't all those law enforcers deal with just one resident, huh? Then, why can't reporters understand singulars and plurals?

Third of all, "profiling" duh!
Afterward, a convenience store was looted. Several other stores along a main road near the shooting scene were broken into, including a check-cashing store, a boutique and a small grocery store. People also took items from a sporting goods store and a cellphone retailer, and carted rims away from a tire store. TV footage showed streams of people walking out of a liquor store carrying bottles of alcohol
I bet they all had nothing whatsoever in common. . .other than being members of the huddled masses yearning to breathe free, not to mention drink free, eat free, steal free and so on.

(Props for the check-cashing store though - they all should be burned baby, burned)
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Re: Another Police Shooting...

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Is it time for a dusk-to-dawn curfew yet? I'm thinking...probably.
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Re: Another Police Shooting...

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Uh, this is a municipal matter regarding a local police force.
Yeah, well that ain't workin' out so good...(And also by now I'm sure you've got a lot of people coming in from outside Ferguson to participate, making the situation even more difficult to handle)

The local cops have gone from standing around watching while rioters burned squad cars the first night, (because they were under manned and under equipped to deal with what was happening) all the way now to the other extreme, where they're firing tear gas and rubber bullets at people protesting peacefully...

There are only 53 total cops on this police force; they obviously don't have the training, experience or manpower to deal effectively with this situation. They clearly need help; not just on the ground but also in dealing with the community leadership to co-ordinate with them to help diffuse the situation. (This was something that the authorities in Sanford Florida did very effectively to avoid violence there during the Trayvon Martin protests.)
"They rounded up the wrong people ... reverends, young people organizing the peace effort."
That sort of thing shows how disorganized and inexperienced the response to this has been; those are the people you want to establish communication with, and coordinate with, not arrest.

I don't think the national guard would be a great idea, but there are a range of other options available; maybe the state police could assist, or trained crowd control units from St. Louis or Kansas City...

The locals are clearly in over their heads with this, both with the public relations needs and the policing needs. If you have a large, disciplined, properly trained force on the scene, there will be less tendency to overreact then there is with a small, untrained, nervous police presence. And if you have communication with the organizers and community leaders, you have a much better chance of defusing volatile situations, rather than inflaming them.
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Re: Another Police Shooting...

Post by rubato »

And then we can all be surprised when it happens again!

"Born yesterday"


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Re: Another Police Shooting...

Post by Lord Jim »

rube, I'm really puzzled by your posts in this thread...

Could you please tell me what you're responding to with this stuff? I've read through this thread several times, and I can't for the life of me find where anybody has claimed that black communities don't have legitimate grievances with local law enforcement agencies. But clearly you must be seeing this posted somewhere, since that's the only logical explanation for your posts. So perhaps you could point out where you see this; your reading skills must be better than mine...

Actually, let me correct myself, on second thought, there is another logical explanation for your posts in this thread...You're a

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