Yes I killed mum and dad but have pity - I'm an orphan

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MajGenl.Meade
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Yes I killed mum and dad but have pity - I'm an orphan

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

The first defence witness to take the stand in mitigation of sentence, Pistorius’s psychotherapist, Lore Hartzenberg, testified that he was a “broken” young man, tortured by the knowledge that he killed the love of his life.

She said Pistorius had been deprived of an opportunity to mourn after being charged with murder and this had exacerbated his guilt.

“He remains in an unresolved spiral of grief … suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder and depression. He has a longing for Reeva and has not reached a state of acceptance. His remorse is unabated and he requires ongoing therapy.”

Maringa’s recommendations, if accepted by the judge, could mean Pistorius will undergo:
Three years of correctional supervision; 16 hours of community service a month, involving “domestic work” at a museum and a hospital; and Trauma counselling and anger-management and rehabilitation programmes.
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Re: Yes I killed mum and dad but have pity - I'm an orphan

Post by Long Run »

And again, apparently you can make this stuff up.

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Re: Yes I killed mum and dad but have pity - I'm an orphan

Post by BoSoxGal »

South Africa Violence Against Women Rated Highest In The World
AP | By MICHELLE FAUL
Posted: 03/08/2013 12:33 pm EST Updated: 11/11/2013 3:23 am EST

JOHANNESBURG -- Reeva Steenkamp, the model and law graduate shot and killed by Oscar Pistorius, was statistically just one of three women killed on Valentine's Day by an intimate partner, according to a study on violence against women that damns South Africa as having "the highest rate ever reported in research anywhere in the world."

Steenkamp's killing came the day before she planned to wear black in a "Black Friday" protest against the country's excruciatingly high number of rapes, spurred by the particularly brutal gang-rape and mutilation of a 17-year-old that made front-page news in February. The girl managed to identify an ex-boyfriend among her attackers before she died.

As the world marks International Women's Day, South Africans are locked in public soul-searching over the high level of murders and rapes perpetrated against women.

In the past month, among other cases in South Africa: a court charged a man accused of chopping up and beheading his wife with a machete; police arrested a 29-year-old accused of raping a 2-year-old toddler fighting for her life in the hospital; and police are investigating the rape of a 100-year-old great-great grandmother. Police still are hunting for two of 15 men accused of gang raping a 23-year-old woman. Her ordeal lasted hours.

Newspaper editorials and talk radio shows are examining traditional chauvinistic attitudes, gun control laws and weaknesses in the police and court systems that allow many perpetrators to walk free – thus discouraging women from reporting. This week police disclosed that they do not have enough rape kits, needed to collect evidence.

"Of all the matrics (high school graduates) in your class, one third have been raped!" says a public education announcement on Talk Radio 702, referring to statistics that estimate more than 30 percent of girls have been raped by the time they are 18.

It seems there are few places for South African girls to be safe: Many are raped in their homes by a relative or family friend; many are raped at school, often by teachers; only a quarter are raped by someone they do not know.

In South Africa, statistics say someone gets raped every four minutes. Only 66,196 incidents were reported to police last year and their investigations led to only 4,500 convictions.

"If data for all violent assaults, rapes and other sexual assaults against women are taken into account, then approximately 200,000 adult women are reported as being attacked in South Africa every year," Lerato Moloi of the South African Institute for Race Relations said. The real figure is considerably higher, she said, since most cases never are reported.

The rate of murders of women in South Africa is equally troubling.

A woman is killed by an intimate partner every eight hours in South Africa, a probable underestimate because no perpetrator is identified in 20 percent of killings, according to a study published in August and co-authored by Professor Rachel Jewkes of the South African Medical Research Council. That is double the rate of such murders in the United States, according to the report. The study was based on a sample of deceased females aged 14 years and older at national mortuaries, since police statistics do not separate the killings of women by partners from those by strangers.

It found that although the murders of females has gone down between 1999 and 2009, as have all homicides, the percentage killed by intimate partners has increased – from 50 percent to 57 percent. Half the women were killed by partners they were living with, 30 percent by men they were dating and 18 percent by their husbands.

The study also found rape was suspected in more than one in four of the killings. "The proportion of women killed by non-intimate partners where there was a rape has significantly increased, but those figures are hidden" in police statistics, explained Jewkes, who has been researching gender violence in South Africa for 20 years.

The study compared statistics from a similar project in 1999 to find evidence of progress in reducing such killings: "Our assumption would be if our gender-based activities were having an impact we would see a decline but there wasn't, in fact gender-based non-intimate and intimate murders have increased, though overall homicide is decreasing."

Something "is going terribly wrong," Jewkes said.

A major obstacle is the number of men who are rapists. Thirty-seven percent of men in a survey in Gauteng Province admitted they had raped a woman, according to a survey that Jewkes did with other academics. Gauteng is the smallest but most populated province of South Africa.

Jewkes said it can be difficult to work with men, knowing that one in three is, statistically, a rapist.

"This must be a huge obstacle to getting anything done from police to make arrests to decisions in the court room by magistrates and so forth," she said.

At least half a dozen police officers have been arrested for alleged rape since November, including one accused of raping a 14-year-old boy and an officer accused of raping a woman who came to the police station to report domestic violence. In the month of February, two police officers were arrested for alleged rape; one officer was sentenced to 15 years' imprisonment for shooting and killing his girlfriend and another officer was arrested in the shooting death of a woman he was involved with. Two police officers are on trial for shooting and wounding their wives. The February figures come from the Independent Police Investigative Directorate, which investigates crimes committed by officers.

The public discussions come as the wife of a multimillionaire Cabinet minister is suing him for divorce alleging domestic abuse.

Opposition politician Lindiwe Mazibuko has described "a silent war against the children and women of this country ... We live in a deeply patriarchal and injured society where the rights of women are not respected."

President Jacob Zuma, who was acquitted on charges of raping the daughter of a family friend in 2005, this month launched a national "Stop Rape" campaign "to rid our country of this scourge, to cure our nation of this sickness."

South Africa has strong laws protecting women and children, but they are not being acted on.

Some of the few victims who report domestic violence receive inadequate support from officials, according to an Inter-Ministerial Committee on Violence against Women and Children. "There is evidence that victims reported cases of domestic violence to police or social workers, but their pleas for help fell on deaf ears or (they) were told to resolve the matter with their partners," said its recent report.

The committee was set up in May last year and reviewed research on the subject in February "with the view to develop new strategies." At the same time it noted "a need to move from policy to action."
This jurist - and the Pistorious trial in general - has done nothing to whatsoever to improve the horrendous situation concerning domestic violence and violence against women in South Africa; which is rampant even among those who police the streets.

Shoot your girlfriend 4x through a locked door, cry like a baby and say you 'thought she was an intruder' - get a pat on the head and free counseling while hanging out in the comfort of your own home. :evil:

I hope the prosecution appeals the stupid verdict.
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Re: Yes I killed mum and dad but have pity - I'm an orphan

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Well, a verdict of premeditated murder was never going to happen. There was no proof of that, nor of intentional murder - although of course everyone believes the latter to be the case. An angry Oscar just let fly - given his notorious bad temper and known habit of loosening off a round or two in strange places. But again - it could not be proven. The judge was left really with little option other than the negligent homicide finding. It could be 15 years in the stripey hole but don't bet on it.

South Africa has a "violence against women and children month" which, contrary to expectation, is not a recommendation for the activity. It's the other 11 that allow for that.
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Re: Yes I killed mum and dad but have pity - I'm an orphan

Post by BoSoxGal »

MajGenl.Meade wrote:Well, a verdict of premeditated murder was never going to happen. There was no proof of that, nor of intentional murder - although of course everyone believes the latter to be the case. An angry Oscar just let fly - given his notorious bad temper and known habit of loosening off a round or two in strange places. But again - it could not be proven. The judge was left really with little option other than the negligent homicide finding. It could be 15 years in the stripey hole but don't bet on it.

South Africa has a "violence against women and children month" which, contrary to expectation, is not a recommendation for the activity. It's the other 11 that allow for that.
Deliberate homicide is proved all the time on similar facts - it only takes seconds to form the intent to murder.

Did you follow closely the evidence given at trial? There was plenty of evidence to refute Oscar's version of events, which would clearly lend credibility to the prosecution's version. I very much disagree that murder 'could not be proven' in this case; there is a reason so many who did follow the trial closely were shocked by the verdict:
Across South Africa, there was consternation at the judge's verdict. Many people took to radio phone-ins and social media to vent their bewilderment and the hashtag #Justice4Reeva quickly started trending on Twitter. Some suggested that Pistorius had been given exceptional treatment because of his celebrity, wealth and race.

Eusebius McKaiser, a talkshow host on the Johannesburg-based radio station Power FM, said he had received hundreds of calls and text messages during his morning show and "99% of them think it was a mistake".

McKaiser, an author and columnist, took the same view: "She should have found him guilty of murder. There are good prospects for the state to appeal on a point of law. The higher court might even rebuke her for getting it wrong. The mistake she made really was elementary."

The judge was wrong to use details of Pistorius's conduct after the killing, such as praying to God to save Steenkamp's life, as evidence of his intention when he pulled the trigger, McKaiser added. "That's the bit I deem to be embarrassing and not just wrong. It doesn't matter what happened afterwards. These facts are irrelevant to the case."

Lawyers also joined the criticism. Martin Hood, an attorney specialising in firearms offences, said: "There has been a widespread expression of outrage across the board. There are many people in the legal profession who believe she got it wrong. It has met with a lot of disappointment in the court of public opinion, including on the part of gun owners."

He added: "I would be bitterly disappointed and angry if I was Reeva Steenkamp's family."
more: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/s ... us-verdict

eta: I watched most of the trial, streamed live on the interwebs in the middle of the night here in Montucky. (For the past year or so I suffered terribly from insomnia, until late June when my new D.O. put me on an excellent migraine preventive med that also aids in sleep.)
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Re: Yes I killed mum and dad but have pity - I'm an orphan

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

She found that the state had not made the case for premeditated murder, saying “there are just not enough facts to support such a finding”. This was primarily because no evidence was presented to the court that showed there had been an argument between Pistorius and Steenkamp, which led to her fleeing into the toilet and him deliberately firing at her. Masipa also rejected the testimony of state witnesses who said they heard Steenkamp screaming.
The above is also from the same Grauniad article you posted. Yes, talk-show hosts, authors and columnists, the court of public opinion (including myself) and "many people in the legal profession" think Judge Masipa got it wrong. For the judge to utter such stupidities as he is to be believed that he thought it was a burglar because no one could make up such a story.... well, that is beyond moronic.

Had it been a trial by jury, Oscar would be banged up for life. That's because, unencumbered by evidence, we all 'know' he shot in the full awareness that it was Reeva in the bathroom.

But there was not the evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that this yo-yo did it on purpose, whether premeditated or intended - at even a second's notice. If there is, you should cite it because it's not known elsewhere. If it's the neighbours hearing screams and shots - the judge found their evidence to be confused as to time, coloured by pre-trial publicity and at variance with known facts.

Interestingly, Trevor Noah's comparison of Oscar's let-off with Jub-Jub's draconian sentence for killing 4 + maiming 2 with a car received a state response just a few days ago - which I posted. Jub-Jub is suddenly and mysteriously going to be let out way, way, way earlier than his sentence....... expect Oscar to experience a similar smaller term in jail

ETA yes I followed it closely in the pages of the Times/Sunday Times
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Re: Yes I killed mum and dad but have pity - I'm an orphan

Post by BoSoxGal »

Again, as someone with a fairly more extensive background in criminal law than you, I disagree with your assertion that there was not evidence sufficient to meet the burden for premeditated murder. I saw the evidence as presented to the judge, not as summarized in news articles. There was evidence sufficient for a reasonable trier of fact to find him guilty of that charge; to state emphatically otherwise is to essentially accuse the prosecution of a violation of ethics, and I have not heard one legal scholar/practitioner - South African or otherwise - make such an accusation.

Another jurist could just as easily have found him guilty of murder; there was sufficient evidence put forward. Just because this jurist didn't find certain witnesses credible doesn't make that finding a 'fact'; given that the same jurist relied on Oscar's tears after murdering Reeva as evidence of his innocence only shows how faulty her judgments are.
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Re: Yes I killed mum and dad but have pity - I'm an orphan

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Of course you have more experience (n years) in criminal proceedings than I (er....0 years). You and I agree on all aspects except that of the weight of evidence.

I'm a little surprised that you interpret "the evidence did not prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt" to mean there is an accusation of malfeasance by the prosecutor - all the lawyer shows on TV seem to think it means that the evidence was not sufficient, beyond a reasonable doubt. The prosecutors aren't happy to lose but they don't go around making wild accusations against judge and jury. Not often anyway. Usually it's the defending attorneys who do that.
There was evidence sufficient for a reasonable trier of fact to find him guilty of that charge; to state emphatically otherwise is to essentially accuse the prosecution of a violation of ethics, and I have not heard one legal scholar/practitioner - South African or otherwise - make such an accusation.
(The judge) found that the state had not made the case for premeditated murder, saying “there are just not enough facts to support such a finding”.
She (the judge - a legal scholar) found insufficient facts - you find them sufficient. You also find her (the judge) "unreasonable" since 'a reasonable trier of fact' would have found him guilty of murder. So they both should get sent down.

I suggest, m'lud, that while I am merely presenting the opinion of the trial judge (who has perhaps a bit of legal experience - may be even n x n) it is not reasonable to charge me with accusing the prosecution of doing wrong. However, with the greatest respect, an attorney calling a judge "unreasonable" is a bit close to contempt, innit? Know wot I mean?

;)
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Re: Yes I killed mum and dad but have pity - I'm an orphan

Post by BoSoxGal »

Attorneys call judges unreasonable all the time - just not to their faces, and while generally we are prohibited from acting in such a manner as to erode public confidence in the judiciary, lawyers state publicly their belief that a judge or jury 'got it wrong' all the time.

What I'm taking issue with is your declarative statements that there was not evidence in existence sufficient to meet the reasonable doubt burden for murder.

If that were true, then the prosecution would be in violation of its ethical duty to not charge an offense that cannot be supported beyond a reasonable doubt by the evidence in the State's/People's possession. (Assuming this ethical mandate applies to South African prosecutors as it does to American prosecutors.)

The finding made by this jurist is only one jurist's reasonable opinion - and I believe she got it wrong, based on hearing and judging the same evidence.

The Florida guy who shot the kid in the car next to him because of loud music was just found guilty of murder at his second trial on that charge; the first jury hung on that charge. The same evidence was presented to both juries.

Do you see the distinction I am trying to make?

Perhaps if you qualified your statements with "I agree with Judge Masipa's finding that there wasn't sufficient evidence . . . " instead of saying as a declarative, 'there wasn't sufficient evidence and that charge could never be proven'.

I'm quite certain that a different SA jurist could have come to the opposite conclusion on the very same evidence, and I don't doubt that some of her fellow jurists think she got it wrong, just as many lawyers do. The fact that she gave weight to irrelevant evidence such as poor Oscar's crocodile tears AFTER the fact gives me concern as to her weighing of all the other evidence, which is a reasonable position. Lots of murderers cry crocodile tears - very convincingly - after murdering a loved one.

As I said, I hope her ruling is appealed.
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Re: Yes I killed mum and dad but have pity - I'm an orphan

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Right-o!
For the judge to utter such stupidities as (Oscar) is to be believed that he thought it was a burglar because no one could make up such a story.... well, that is beyond moronic.
I hope that the verdict is appealed and overturned too.
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Re: Yes I killed mum and dad but have pity - I'm an orphan

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An entire thread because a lawyer hired a psychologist who would say things which were exculpatory.

Tell you what, start a thread when its a seal barking.

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Re: Yes I killed mum and dad but have pity - I'm an orphan

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

No need. You just barked.
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Re: Yes I killed mum and dad but have pity - I'm an orphan

Post by BoSoxGal »

rubato, you do realize that you're not required to read threads that you find boring, don't you? :shrug

Clearly Meade and I were interested in the case developments; I think that's reason enough for us to discuss it.
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Re: Yes I killed mum and dad but have pity - I'm an orphan

Post by Lord Jim »

Tell you what, start a thread when its a seal barking.

yrs,
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You've started so many of those...

Now that Dave isn't here to respond, they tend to sink to the bottom of the page without comment.... ;)
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Re: Yes I killed mum and dad but have pity - I'm an orphan

Post by rubato »

Thank you, although you lack the wit to appreciate that it was a complement.

When it is a seal barking it is an unusual event and the unusual is inherently interesting. When it is not it is inherently boring. Like witlessness.




yrs,
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Re: Yes I killed mum and dad but have pity - I'm an orphan

Post by rubato »

bigskygal wrote:rubato, you do realize that you're not required to read threads that you find boring, don't you? :shrug

Clearly Meade and I were interested in the case developments; I think that's reason enough for us to discuss it.

I was referring to the original premise for the thread not your later arguments with MGenl. I think you both agree that the testimony of the psychologist paid for by the defense is not compelling.


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Re: Yes I killed mum and dad but have pity - I'm an orphan

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Compliment? I do feel chuffed.
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Re: Yes I killed mum and dad but have pity - I'm an orphan

Post by Lord Jim »

When it is a seal barking it is an unusual event and the unusual is inherently interesting.
LMAO !!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

I'm an eternal optimist rube, so I have faith that one day, you will not write "Be a complete frigging moron" at the top of your "things to do today" list....

Though obviously that day wasn't today:



Yeah, seals barking, rare event, almost as rare as chickens clucking or you exposing your ignorance....

You do realize you've just handed me another one to add to the very long list of staggeringly ignorant things you have said here don't you? (You know, "the Poles weren't victims of the Nazis" "the British have had a fourth rate Navy since the American Revolution" "there was no genocide before Christianity" etc., etc, etc.)

It's truly amazing that a person could reach adulthood believing that there's something unusual about a seal barking. Somebody must have had a good laugh at your expense when they told you that. (Though surely you must be used to that; it's as common as a seal barking)

And the guy lives in a bloody beach town no less.... :lol:

Referring to something as "seal barking" is a common way of describing mindless, repetitive, background noise which is what makes it such an appropriate description of 90% plus of what you post around here...
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