Come on baby light my fire

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oldr_n_wsr
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Come on baby light my fire

Post by oldr_n_wsr »

Rural Tennessee fire sparks conservative ideological debate
By Brett Michael Dykes
Tue Oct 5, 4:17 pm ET
Just about anything can be fodder for an ideological dispute these days. Just consider news of the recent fire at Gene Cranick's home in Obion County, Tenn.

Here's the short version of what happened: In rural Obion County, homeowners must pay $75 annually for fire protection services from the nearby city of South Fulton. If they don't pay the fee and their home catches fire, tough luck -- even if firefighters are positioned just outside the home with hoses at the ready.

Gene Cranick found this out the hard way.

When Cranick's house caught fire last week, and he couldn't contain the blaze with garden hoses, he called 911. During the emergency call, he offered to pay all expenses related to the Fire Department's defense of his home, but the South Fulton firefighters refused to do anything.

They did, however, come out when Cranick's neighbor -- who'd already paid the fee -- called 911 because he worried that the fire might spread to his property. Once they arrived, members of the South Fulton department stood by and watched Cranick's home burn; they sprang into action only when the fire reached the neighbor's property.

"I hadn't paid my $75 and that's what they want, $75, and they don't care how much it burned down," Gene Cranick told WPSD, an NBC affiliate in Kentucky. "I thought they'd come out and put it out, even if you hadn't paid your $75, but I was wrong."

The incident has sparked a debate in many corners of the Web. Writers for the National Review, arguably the nation's most influential right-leaning voice, have seized on the episode to discuss the relative merits of compassionate conservatism versus a hard-line libertarianism. (See their arguments here, here, here, here and here.)

Daniel Foster, a self-described "conservative with fairly libertarian leanings" who writes for the magazine, took issue with the county's laissez-faire approach to firefighting, calling it "a kind of government for which I would not sign up."

"What moral theory allows these firefighters (admittedly acting under orders) to watch this house burn to the ground when 1) they have already responded to the scene; 2) they have the means to stop it ready at hand; 3) they have a reasonable expectation to be compensated for their trouble?" Foster wrote.

But Foster's colleague Kevin Williamson took the opposite view. Cranick's fellow residents in the rural stretches of Obion County had no fire protection until the county established the $75 fee in 1990. As Williamson explained: "The South Fulton fire department is being treated as though it has done something wrong, rather than having gone out of its way to make services available to people who did not have them before. The world is full of jerks, freeloaders, and ingrates — and the problems they create for themselves are their own. These free-riders have no more right to South Fulton's firefighting services than people in Muleshoe, Texas, have to those of NYPD detectives."

Liberals are pouncing on the Cranick fire as an illustration of what they take to be the callous indifference of a market regime that rewards privileged interests over the concerns of ordinary Americans.

"The case perfectly demonstrated conservative ideology, which is based around the idea of the on-your-own society and informs a policy agenda that primarily serves the well-off and privileged," Think Progress' Zaid Jilani wrote in a response to the National Review writers. "It has been 28 years since conservative historian Doug Wead first coined the term 'compassionate conservative.' It now appears that if any such philosophy ever existed, it has few adherents in the modern conservative movement."
LINK

I blame this on the local politicians/leaders. There never should have been an "opt out" option, just add the $75 to everyones tax bill.
That being said, the firefighters should have put out the fire and then billed him.
I was a volly, I don't think I could have just stood by and watch this guys house burn down. although I might have been kicked out aftwards

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dales
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Re: Come on baby light my fire

Post by dales »

To "opt out" of fire service is moronic, to let the guy's double wide burn without doing anything is criminal.

Your collective inability to acknowledge this obvious truth makes you all look like fools.


yrs,
rubato

oldr_n_wsr
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Re: Come on baby light my fire

Post by oldr_n_wsr »

Now that I watched the video, almost looks like he had a still there. (could be a hot water heater though) ;)
not that it mean a hill of beans about responding/not responding

Also, from what I could gather from the video, the fire department wasn't/didn't respond until the neighbor (who paid) called and said his house was being threatened. Probably couldn't have saved much of the original house when they finally did show up.
again
not that it mean a hill of beans about responding/not responding

oldr_n_wsr
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Re: Come on baby light my fire

Post by oldr_n_wsr »

Another thing that got me was this
he couldn't contain the blaze with garden hoses
Being a volly years ago, I went into many a fire where the homeowner tried to put it out themselves. Most of the time they made matters worse as the fire would be driven up and inside the walls. Need to start putting out the fire at the top as it burns up not down.

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Gob
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Re: Come on baby light my fire

Post by Gob »

oldr_n_wsr wrote:
Here's the short version of what happened: In rural Obion County, homeowners must pay $75 annually for fire protection services from the nearby city of South Fulton. If they don't pay the fee and their home catches fire, tough luck -- even if firefighters are positioned just outside the home with hoses at the ready.

Gene Cranick found this out the hard way.

When Cranick's house caught fire last week, and he couldn't contain the blaze with garden hoses, he called 911. During the emergency call, he offered to pay all expenses related to the Fire Department's defense of his home, but the South Fulton firefighters refused to do anything.

They did, however, come out when Cranick's neighbor -- who'd already paid the fee -- called 911 because he worried that the fire might spread to his property. Once they arrived, members of the South Fulton department stood by and watched Cranick's home burn; they sprang into action only when the fire reached the neighbor's property.
Pure insanity. Would they have stood by if there was a person trapped in the house too?
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

rubato
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Re: Come on baby light my fire

Post by rubato »

Welcome to libertarian heaven.

Pay the nice policeman on the way out or you'll be mugged in the parking lot.


yrs,
rubato

Big RR
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Re: Come on baby light my fire

Post by Big RR »

Pure insanity. Would they have stood by if there was a person trapped in the house too?
I think so; search and rescue is an extra $50 subscription.

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Miles
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Re: Come on baby light my fire

Post by Miles »

Pure insanity!
I was a fireman for 11+ years and I could not be part of this organization. Any vol. fire department that could operate at such a low level of moral responsibility should have their charter revoked.
I expect to go straight to hell...........at least I won't have to spend time making new friends.

@meric@nwom@n

Re: Come on baby light my fire

Post by @meric@nwom@n »

You would think that the insurance company would sue the dept.

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Crackpot
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Re: Come on baby light my fire

Post by Crackpot »

I would think the insurance company would just refuse to cover it due to the owners refusal to take reasonable precautions.
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

oldr_n_wsr
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Re: Come on baby light my fire

Post by oldr_n_wsr »

If the guy wouldn't spend the $75 a year on fire protection, do you really think he had homeowners insurance?

Big RR
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Re: Come on baby light my fire

Post by Big RR »

Interesting point Crackpot; my guess is that the insurance company provided coverage knowing that the area had no fire department. At some point the private coverage became possible, but unless the insurance company insisted that the homeowner pay the premium for the coverage, I doubt they'd have much of a case. It's kind of like if you didn't have a fire hydrant in your enighborhood and your neighbor offered to let you use the water in his pool in case of fire for a certain amount every year; if you chose not to do so, I doubt the insurance company would be able to say you somehow breached the policy unless they required you to accept the offer and pay him as a contingecy for coverage.

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Sue U
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Re: Come on baby light my fire

Post by Sue U »

@meric@nwom@n wrote:You would think that the insurance company would sue the dept.
Oh, they will, assuming he had insurance. And if he didn't have insurance, I'd think that he would have a pretty good case himself.
GAH!

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Gob
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Re: Come on baby light my fire

Post by Gob »

Miles wrote:Pure insanity!
I was a fireman for 11+ years and I could not be part of this organization. Any vol. fire department that could operate at such a low level of moral responsibility should have their charter revoked.
Well said Miles...

I wonder what our libertopian friends think of this?
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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Crackpot
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Re: Come on baby light my fire

Post by Crackpot »

Miles wrote:Pure insanity!
I was a fireman for 11+ years and I could not be part of this organization. Any vol. fire department that could operate at such a low level of moral responsibility should have their charter revoked.
It's a sticky situation there Miles as a taxpayer would you want your FD out doing freebies while your house may be burning down? It may be a different story if a life were on the line, but, what moral responsibility do they have to put their lives at risk for the property of someone who doesn't think that they are a worthwhile expenditure?

As I see it they did all that was required of them: Make sure the sure don't spread.

What this does show is that the Libritopian dream of only paying for services you think you need is morally bankrupt and ethically unworkable.
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

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Crackpot
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Re: Come on baby light my fire

Post by Crackpot »

That being said, the firefighters should have put out the fire and then billed him.
And how would you work that one out exactly? What are the billable hours of a public service? What of the materials used? The Training involved? the way these things work is that the community as a whole pays for it all spread out over time and population. Do they charge this guy for everything? (why does he deserve pro-rating) What guarantee do they have that the guy will pay? (he wouldn't before and he's sure to be cash strapped dealing with fire damage)

In short this is why things like this aren't paid for that way.
I blame this on the local politicians/leaders. There never should have been an "opt out" option, just add the $75 to everyones tax bill.
I'm sure this guy got just the type of Govt. he voted for.

As LJ is fond of saying "elections have consequences".
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

Andrew D
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Re: Come on baby light my fire

Post by Andrew D »

If I recall correctly, this sort of thing has happened before in other places. And suits against the fire departments have gone nowhere.
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oldr_n_wsr
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Re: Come on baby light my fire

Post by oldr_n_wsr »

And how would you work that one out exactly?
Charge him $75 for every year he didn't pay since the department was formed. That works out to $1500. Put it right on his tax bill.

Big RR
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Re: Come on baby light my fire

Post by Big RR »

oldr_n_wsr wrote:
And how would you work that one out exactly?
Charge him $75 for every year he didn't pay since the department was formed. That works out to $1500. Put it right on his tax bill.
That's the point, they can't do that, it's not a tax and the fire department is not entitled to his tax money as he does not live in the municipality it is part of (I think he lives in an unicorporated area). But I think it's damn silly that the county wouldn't have worked out something with the municipality where they would make a payment for fire protection for all, rather than leave it up to private subscriptions, as fire protection protects the community, not just the individual homeowners, but that's the way it stands. I'll bet they collect tax monies for public schools and pay tuition to the municipalities to admit children from outside the twon (unless they have a county system of public education), IMHO they should do the same for fire protection and any other important services that benefit the community as a whole which the county cannot or does not provide. But I guess that's socialist.

oldr_n_wsr
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Re: Come on baby light my fire

Post by oldr_n_wsr »

The homeowner did say this
he offered to pay all expenses related to the Fire Department's defense of his home
But I do agree, fire protection should not be an "opt out" kind of thing.

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