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Teachers good, Students not so good

Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 4:32 pm
by oldr_n_wsr
Students can’t pass tests, but teachers are ‘A’ OK

By Aaron Short and Carl Campanile

December 17, 2014 | 1:55am

This does not compute.

More than 90 percent of the city’s public school teachers were rated as successful instructors ­under a new and supposedly more rigorous evaluation system mandated by the state, it was reported Tuesday.

But the sky-high scores released by the state Education Department came as two-thirds of elementary and middle-school students taught by the same instructors flunked standardized math and English exams last year.

Perplexed parents accused educrats of grade inflation for teachers and claimed the results lacked credibility considering the number of students failing to meet academic standards.

“New York state’s teacher-evaluation law is a joke,” said Mona ­Davids, head of the NYC Parents Union, who has filed suit to overhaul the state’s tenure law.

“Teachers are great, it’s the kids that are just not educable, right?! Outrageous.”

Under the first mandated ratings for city teachers, 82.5 percent were graded as effective and 9.2 percent were rated highly effective under criteria set by the state.

Another 7 percent were rated as “developing,” meaning they needed to improve, and only 1.2 percent were considered ineffective, or failures.

Students, meanwhile, were struggling — only 34.5 percent passed the Common Core math exam and 28.4 percent the English Language Arts test last year.

Regents Chancellor Merryl Tisch admitted the chasm between the teachers’ grades and the students’ doesn’t make sense.

“The ratings show there’s much more work to do to strengthen the evaluation system,” Tisch said.

“There’s a real contrast between how our students are performing and how their teachers and principals are evaluated.”

Hard as it is to believe, New York City’s ratings were actually more rigorous than the rest of the state.
More than 58 percent of teachers outside the five boroughs were rated “highly effective.”

Advocates noted that Gov. Cuomo and state Education Commissioner John King imposed a more rigorous system on the city after the teachers union failed to reach an agreement on evaluations with the prior Bloomberg administration.

Jenny Sedlis, director of StudentsFirstNY, said it was “absurd” that so many teachers statewide were rated highly effective.

The new, four-level evaluation replaces the old system that rated instructors as either “satisfactory” or “unsatisfactory.”

Under the revised system, classroom observations account for 60 percent of evaluations, results on state standardized exams account for 20 percent and local assessments account for 20 percent.

United Federation of Teachers President Mike Mulgrew called the new rating system “a step in the right direction.”
I know many students and their life circumstances can skew results downward but this seems a little too skewed.
Thoughts?

Re: Teachers good, Students not so good

Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:12 pm
by Big RR
I presume a rating of "effective" or "highly effective" are not related to student's performance on standardized tests? If they are looking at other measures of how students have learned/mastered the material, I have to problem with that. Likewise, if the educational objectives are to have students learn concepts, some of which are not included in the standardized test, then fine as well. But if the educational objective is to have the students do well on the standardized tests, then I cannot see how teachers having students with a failure rate of nearly 2/3 can be rated effective.

Certainly, there can be a variety of reasons why students "fail", but if the teachers cannot teach the concepts sufficiently to have their students demonstrate to at least a majority of their students, then I cannot see how they can be "effective". The standards may be nearly impossible to achieve under the particular circumstances, but if they are what the teachers are evaluated on, the teachers should not be rated effective if they cannot achieve them.

Re: Teachers good, Students not so good

Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:22 pm
by MajGenl.Meade
Is that the 'New English', Big RR? :lol:

Re: Teachers good, Students not so good

Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 6:00 pm
by Big RR
Well it's not "Olde English", :D

Re: Teachers good, Students not so good

Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 7:25 pm
by oldr_n_wsr
By BigRR
I presume a rating of "effective" or "highly effective" are not related to student's performance on standardized tests?
classroom observations account for 60 percent of evaluations, results on state standardized exams account for 20 percent and local assessments account for 20 percent.
I Don't know what "local assessments" are. :shrug


I have to laugh at this:
United Federation of Teachers President Mike Mulgrew called the new rating system “a step in the right direction.”
For the teachers that is. The students don't seem to be getting shown the "right direction".

Re: Teachers good, Students not so good

Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 8:04 pm
by Big RR
Well oldr, that's the point; the teachers have to be assessed against some sort of standard. If that standard is how well they teach the students the information necessary to take and pass the standardized exam (and I certainly hope it is not), then they have failed miserably. No matter how this is judged, they are not effective.

If the standard is different, then those standards should be released. Personally, I think there is a lot more to teaching than teaching students to regurgitate answers on a standard exam; assessing how well the material is presented, how well the students understand and can use it, how the teachers try to help those significantly behind or ahead, and how teachers present the same information in different ways to adjust to the needs of their students is far more important. But this should be made clear.

Personally, I'd do away with the standardized tests and rely more on the assessments of students progress by trained educators, but that's just not politically correct right now.

Re: Teachers good, Students not so good

Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 8:22 pm
by Gob
oldr_n_wsr wrote:

“Teachers are great, it’s the kids that are just not educable, right?! Outrageous.”

Thoughts?
Totally agree for some UK and Aussie students. Kids these days are taught they have "rights", and that teachers have no power to discipline them. Kids who do not want to participate in class cannot be made to.

Re: Teachers good, Students not so good

Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 8:27 pm
by MajGenl.Meade
Big RR wrote: Personally, I'd do away with the standardized tests and rely more on the assessments of students progress by trained educators, but that's just not politically correct right now.
That would be the same trained educators who are being accused of faking their own brilliance would it? :P

Re: Teachers good, Students not so good

Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:23 pm
by Big RR
Hopefully not; hopefully even a random sample would get a representative number of educators who understand what their job is and have a variety of ways of accomplishing it.

My guess is that the standardized test creators are more along the lines of what you have stated; that and the politicians who try to sell the tests as the answer to every ill in education. :nana

Re: Teachers good, Students not so good

Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 11:31 pm
by Guinevere
So do we now want teachers to just teach to the tests? Or do we no longer care about an actual education??

My godson attends the "best" public school in Chicago (application only). His parents are less than thrilled about the education he is receiving because the focus is far too heavily weighted on keeping their "best scores in the state" ranking, and less about "education."

No thank you.

Re: Teachers good, Students not so good

Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:28 am
by wesw
agree with guin

Re: Teachers good, Students not so good

Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:30 am
by rubato
Guinevere wrote:So do we now want teachers to just teach to the tests? Or do we no longer care about an actual education??

My godson attends the "best" public school in Chicago (application only). His parents are less than thrilled about the education he is receiving because the focus is far too heavily weighted on keeping their "best scores in the state" ranking, and less about "education."

No thank you.
China and Korea test like fiends but the richest Chinese and Koreans send their children to US private schools (like OES) and hope they will get into good US universities and not the test-based schools in their countries.

Just saying.


yrs,
rubato

Re: Teachers good, Students not so good

Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 12:57 pm
by oldr_n_wsr
So do we now want teachers to just teach to the tests?
Teachers in my district have been complaining about that for the last few years as CC has inflitrated.
There must be some way to balance the need to evaluate (testing etc) and the need to really teach (not just to the test).
I don't have a solution. Seem I got a pretty good education without CC, but times were different 40-50 years ago.

Re: Teachers good, Students not so good

Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:30 pm
by rubato
oldr_n_wsr wrote:
So do we now want teachers to just teach to the tests?
Teachers in my district have been complaining about that for the last few years as CC has inflitrated.
There must be some way to balance the need to evaluate (testing etc) and the need to really teach (not just to the test).
I don't have a solution. Seem I got a pretty good education without CC, but times were different 40-50 years ago.
The increase in testing began with "No child left behind", not CC. But people had been pushing for it before then as well.

yrs,
rubato

Re: Teachers good, Students not so good

Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:39 pm
by wesw
the whole standardization trend is a slippery slope. there is something to be said for the idea that different educational goals in the different states leads to a broader knowledge base in the nation as a whole.

we don t want our kids all running around in chairman moa jackets, marching in lockstep and chanting slogans , do we?

Re: Teachers good, Students not so good

Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:22 pm
by oldr_n_wsr
The increase in testing began with "No child left behind", not CC. But people had been pushing for it before then as well.
You are correct, but I can't remember if No child... had the added emphasis on teacher evals. Seems with the emphasis on teacher evals there is more backlish to CC than there was with No Child...

But I could be "not remembering correctly".

Re: Teachers good, Students not so good

Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:51 pm
by Big RR
the problem with testing alone is that it's pretty easy to game the system; I recall doing this on a dare when I was in high school and I took the Ham Radio advanced license test. On a bet with my friend, I took a couple of months to study and took and passed the written tests for novice, technician, general, and advanced licenses; each was based on a series of 25 or 50 multiple choice questions selected from around 300 or so. I knew nothing much about ham radio, but I bet I could memorize the questions and answers sufficiently to pass and I did (I never got the license because I didn't take the morse code tests, but I proved my point). Memorization to the test proves nothing more than one has a good memory, I still don't know much about how to calculate the various values or what some of the words meant, but I do "know" the answers.

Is that what we want; people who treat understanding as trivial but can parrot the right answer? We can rocket our test scores, but we'll wind up with a nation of dolts.

Re: Teachers good, Students not so good

Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 8:30 pm
by wesw
the thing is that its not necessarily a choice between rote memorization and common core problem solving techniques. complex thinking and convoluted methods are not necessarily connected.

Re: Teachers good, Students not so good

Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 1:07 am
by Sean
Gob wrote:
oldr_n_wsr wrote:

“Teachers are great, it’s the kids that are just not educable, right?! Outrageous.”

Thoughts?
Totally agree for some UK and Aussie students. Kids these days are taught they have "rights", and that teachers have no power to discipline them. Kids who do not want to participate in class cannot be made to.
Education, at management level, is a numbers game. When I taught A-levels 10 years ago, we had targets of 90% retention for the first year and 80% at the end of two years. Not hitting those targets put your position as a teacher in jeopardy. Of course this means that the disruptive, no-chance-of-passing-the-exam students had to be kept in the class... Even at the expense of the others. Stupid fucking system designed by fucktards who have never stood in front of a class!

Re: Teachers good, Students not so good

Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 8:33 pm
by oldr_n_wsr
Testing has it's uses, but it seems in the No Child and CC, testing has become "the preffered eval" method for both students and teachers.
I was always a good "tester" and it drove my brother crazy. (we took a lot of courses together when we went to night school to get our BSEE).
I was not good a memorizing but I was good at figuring things out. Many times the questions hinted at the answer. One just needed to notice the hint.

If I were in class and didn't know much of any math, CC may be the best way to learn. But being an old dog and having learned the way I did, it doesn't seem that way to me.

I remember having trouble with "long division" and just didn't get it. My mom showed me "short division" and I picked that up very fast. I needed to show the long division on tests so I got the answer using short division and then was able to show the work in long division. :mrgreen: