Page 1 of 4

"An Absolute Disastrous Mess"

Posted: Wed May 13, 2015 3:34 pm
by Lord Jim
Amtrak Train Derails in Philadelphia, Killing at Least 6 and Injuring Dozens

PHILADELPHIA — Emergency crews picked through the wreckage of a derailed Amtrak train Wednesday, looking for survivors and victims of a crash that killed at least six people and left dozens injured, as the National Transportation Safety Board and F.B.I. dispatched investigators to the scene.

The New York-bound train jumped the tracks at about 9:30 p.m. Tuesday, tossing around the 238 passengers and five crew members, as most of the train’s passenger cars tumbled onto their sides and crumpled. One car was particularly badly mangled, looking like nothing so much as a crushed and torn soda can.

On Wednesday, a giant crane moved into position and began attempting to lift the damaged cars. The wreck severed Amtrak’s Northeast Corridor, one of the nation’s busiest rail routes, and the Southeast Pennsylvania Transportation Authority’s commuter train line from Philadelphia to Trenton, stranding thousands of passengers and threatening to snarl travel for days or weeks to come.

Not everyone on board had been accounted for, said Michael A. Nutter, the mayor of Philadelphia, and some people who congregated at Philadelphia’s 30th Street Station said they had not been able to locate loved ones, raising the prospect of a rising toll as the search continued.

“We need to match up the manifest with all the individuals who walked off,” Mr. Nutter said.

“It is an absolute disastrous mess,” he said. “Never seen anything like this in my life.”

Temple University Hospital received 54 patients from the wreck, including one who died overnight from a massive chest injury, Herbert Cushing, the chief medical officer, said Wednesday morning. He said that most of the patients suffered fractures from being thrown around the train, and that 25 remained in the hospital, including eight people in critical condition.

“There were lots of people from all around the world” among the injured, he said, including patients from Albania, India and Spain.

As officials worked to notify passengers’ family members about their relatives, Mr. Nutter said most of them were not from the Philadelphia area, with more hailing from Washington, New York and New Jersey.

The Amtrak wreck occurred in the Port Richmond section of the city, northeast of the 30th Street Station. Amtrak service continued between Philadelphia and Washington on a modified schedule, but no trains were able to run between Philadelphia and New York.

The cause of the crash was not known. It occurred close to Frankford Avenue and Wheatsheaf Lane, near a bend in the track. Mr. Nutter said it was too early to tell whether it had played a role in the crash or if there were other factors.

“We have no idea what kind of speed there we’re talking about,” Mr. Nutter said, or “what else happened out there.”

He added, “And I’m not going to speculate on that.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/14/us/am ... lphia.html

Well Mayor Nutter may not want to speculate, but I've heard a non-stop stream of pundits and politicos line up on the tube to claim with virtual certainty this happened as a direct result of budget cuts for Amtrak...

These bozos are blowing pure ass gas; they have absolutely no way whatsoever of knowing this. At this point, there is no more evidence of some sort of budget-cut caused maintenance or infrastructure failure then there is that there was a terrorist attack, but that hasn't stopped them from putting their gums in full flap mode...

Re: "An Absolute Disasterous Mess"

Posted: Wed May 13, 2015 3:36 pm
by BoSoxGal
Ouch! Did they really spell it that way????
dis·as·trous
8-)

Re: "An Absolute Disasterous Mess"

Posted: Wed May 13, 2015 3:38 pm
by Lord Jim
Oh alright, I'll fix it... :mrgreen:

Re: "An Absolute Disastrous Mess"

Posted: Wed May 13, 2015 3:46 pm
by BoSoxGal
:ok

Very sad topic, by the way. We really need to improve our infrastructure, everywhere. Trains are great transportation; we should be able to do them as well as the Europeans do!

Re: "An Absolute Disastrous Mess"

Posted: Wed May 13, 2015 4:30 pm
by Big RR
Absolutely; the northeast corridor from NYC to DC is probably the best maintained part of Amtrak's system as it is heavily traveled and used by businesses and private parties (under 3 hours from downtown to downtown is pretty good, and it certainly beats dealing with all the crap at the airports--I've used it dozens of times), yet it has its problems.

Jim is right, we don't know what caused this incident, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if it is related to reduced maintenance, etc., due to budget cuts and constraints. We do need to invest in this sort of transportation (along with the rest of our infrastructure) if we want to have it available in the future. But what do you bet we don't?

Re: "An Absolute Disastrous Mess"

Posted: Wed May 13, 2015 5:26 pm
by Guinevere
Why Amtrak can't or won't get funding from the Republicans (as published in WaPo (the Fix) this afternoon):

Image


FWIW, I happened to comment directly, this morning, to one of our board members, that were I Empress of all the Lands, we'd be spending money on infrastructure and public transportation, not wars. We have neglected this important investment in ourselves -- at the federal, state, and local levels -- for far too long. I'm seeing more and more catastrophic results from doing so, which end up being more expensive in the long run. Regardless of the cause of this crash, its a priority this country need to look at more closely than it has in the last decades.

Re: "An Absolute Disastrous Mess"

Posted: Wed May 13, 2015 6:37 pm
by Guinevere
Possibly, 100 mph in a 50 mph zone.....

Re: "An Absolute Disastrous Mess"

Posted: Wed May 13, 2015 7:54 pm
by Big RR
That's what the media is saying now; I know there are sections along that corridor where the limits are 90-100, but others where the trains have to slow down. Apparently this was one of them.

Re: "An Absolute Disastrous Mess"

Posted: Wed May 13, 2015 8:08 pm
by Lord Jim
That sounds like human error as the cause...
The Amtrak passenger train that derailed, killing seven in Philadelphia, exceeded 100 mph on a stretch of tracks in Port Richmond with a speed limit of 50 mph before it jumped the tracks on a sharp curve, the National Transportation Safety Board has confirmed, citing preliminary data.

Further calibrations of the data are being conducted, the agency said Wednesday afternoon

That was double the 50-mph speed limit on that stretch of track, according to the report. An agency official declined to comment.

Robert Sumwalt, a NTSB board member, said speed was just one factor investigators would consider, and that the black box, also known as an events recorder, would help determine whether excessive speed played a role in the derailment.

Rescue workers were searching through the wreckage in Port Richmond and investigators looked for a cause for the derailment that injured more than 200.

Meanwhile, police officials say the Amtrak engineer, whose name has not been released, has declined to give police investigators a statement and left the East Detectives Division with an attorney.

The conductor, whose name also has not been released, is being treated at Einstein Memorial Center for a skull fracture.
http://www.phillyvoice.com/amtrak-train ... ladelphia/

Re: "An Absolute Disastrous Mess"

Posted: Wed May 13, 2015 9:35 pm
by Big RR
Perhaps Jim, or a failure to properly mark reduced speed zones.

Re: "An Absolute Disastrous Mess"

Posted: Wed May 13, 2015 10:42 pm
by Lord Jim
Maybe, but that seems really unlikely to me given the amount of trips that take place along that stretch of track day-in-and-day-out...You'd think somebody would have said something...

Plus if that were the cause, this would pretty much have to be the engineer's very first trip through that area, for him not to know that 100 MPH was completely inappropriate, no matter what the speed markers said...

And then of course there's the fact that the engineer felt the need to lawyer up before he said one word about what happened...(if it was a marking or mechanical issue, that would hardly seem necessary...)

Re: "An Absolute Disastrous Mess"

Posted: Thu May 14, 2015 12:34 am
by Guinevere
"Lawyering up" is merely being prudent in this case. Regardless of the explanation or cause, he was the guy at the wheel and may be facing criminal and civil liability. What he says will attach to him in every subsequent proceeding. I sure wouldn't talk before I consulted counsel in that kind of situation.

Re: "An Absolute Disastrous Mess"

Posted: Thu May 14, 2015 12:57 pm
by Sue U
As of this morning there are seven dead, 200 injured and still a dozen unaccounted for (although it seems more likely they escaped unharmed).

Whether equipment failure, track problem or operator error -- or some combination of any -- Amtrak is going to be on the hook for the deaths and injuries; whether the engineer is fired and/or goes to jail are related but separate questions.

I've ridden the Northeast Regional trains a thousand times, and I wouldn't have thought it was even possible to get up to 100 mph between 30th Street Station and Frankford Junction; apart from pulling into Penn Station in NYC, the ride through Philadelphia is always the slowest part of the trip.

Re: "An Absolute Disastrous Mess"

Posted: Thu May 14, 2015 2:41 pm
by Guinevere
The ride from East to West B'more (or vice versa), with Penn Station in the middle, is equally slow. But you probably haven't ridden that piece as much.

Do you know, does Amtrak have any kind of limits to its liability, similar to the airlines? And what about sovereign immunity, or is it more like a quasi-governmental agency? Does the FTCA apply?

A whole lot to sort out in the coming days and months. What a horrible horrible accident.

Re: "An Absolute Disastrous Mess"

Posted: Thu May 14, 2015 3:02 pm
by Sue U
Guinevere wrote:The ride from East to West B'more (or vice versa), with Penn Station in the middle, is equally slow. But you probably haven't ridden that piece as much.
True, I've only taken the train to Baltimore and DC a handful of times, but I'm betting it slows through Baltimore for the same reasons: a more winding route through a congested (i.e., other freight and commuter rail traffic) urban area along old track.
Guinevere wrote:Do you know, does Amtrak have any kind of limits to its liability, similar to the airlines? And what about sovereign immunity, or is it more like a quasi-governmental agency? Does the FTCA apply?
While I have done several FTCA cases, I've never done a railroad case, so your question prompted me to do the google and yes, it seems that in 1997 Congress enacted a $200 million liability cap specifically on passenger rail lines. Considering the potential for injury, loss of life and property damage in a rail accident, that amount is egregiously low.

Re: "An Absolute Disastrous Mess"

Posted: Thu May 14, 2015 3:15 pm
by Guinevere
Not surprised about that limit at all.

And yes, pretty much all the track south of NYC is old, congested, and pretty winding and narrow (there is a section where it crosses the top of the Bay/Susquehanna where it feels like you're in the river). The only section of track where Acela really added speed and where the 1990s "high speed rail" piece was effective is from about New Haven to Providence.

I told you I won my one and only FTCA case, right? Got SJ against the United States (Army) :mrgreen:

Re: "An Absolute Disastrous Mess"

Posted: Thu May 14, 2015 3:51 pm
by liberty
Lord Jim wrote:Maybe, but that seems really unlikely to me given the amount of trips that take place along that stretch of track day-in-and-day-out...You'd think somebody would have said something...

Plus if that were the cause, this would pretty much have to be the engineer's very first trip through that area, for him not to know that 100 MPH was completely inappropriate, no matter what the speed markers said...

And then of course there's the fact that the engineer felt the need to lawyer up before he said one word about what happened...(if it was a marking or mechanical issue, that would hardly seem necessary...)
Jim, considering the excessive speed is it possible that Mary Jane could be in evolved? There are times when being mellow is not a good idea. It would seem to me that people in high responsibility positions, such as a train engineers, would be regularly drug tested and especially after an accident, but I don‘t know that. There might be some kind of privacy right involved.

Re: "An Absolute Disastrous Mess"

Posted: Thu May 14, 2015 3:59 pm
by Lord Jim
According to what I've read Lib, they took a blood sample while he was at the hospital so presumably they'll do a full alcohol and drug work up...

Re: "An Absolute Disastrous Mess"

Posted: Thu May 14, 2015 4:04 pm
by Crackpot
Not to mention if he was on MJ he would have probably going 5mph.

Re: "An Absolute Disastrous Mess"

Posted: Thu May 14, 2015 4:05 pm
by Sue U
Engineer = Casey Jones?