Plan B Forum

A High Court judge yesterday said immigrant parents should be allowed to slap and hit their children when they are new arrivals in Britain.



To the outrage of children’s campaigners, Mrs Justice Pauffley suggested police and social services should make allowance for foreigners because of the ‘different cultural context’. Her remarks came in a legal challenge from an Indian accused of beating his wife and seven-year-old son. The boy, who cannot be named for legal reasons, told the court he was hit on the back and leg with a ‘long belt’.

The father denied ever striking the child with a belt but admitted he would deliver a ‘slap or a tap’ to discipline him. In her ruling the judge concluded: ‘I do not believe there was punitively harsh treatment of [the boy] of the kind that would merit the term physical abuse. ‘Proper allowance must be made for what is, almost certainly, a different cultural context. Within many communities newly arrived in this country, children are slapped and hit for misbehaviour in a way which at first excites the interest of child protection professionals. ‘In this instance ... the boy did not appear to have suffered more than sadness and transient pain from what was done to him.’

Reacting to the comments, an NSPCC spokesman said last night: ‘Children need to be protected irrespective of cultural sensitivities. Different practices are no excuse for child abuse taking place in this country and the law doesn’t make that distinction.

‘Every child deserves the right to be safe and protected from physical abuse and the courts must reflect this.’

“The mistake we made was we gave people a kind of cultural exemption from normal, reasonable, decent behaviour.”
Trevor Phillips former head of the Equalities and Human Rights Commission.

The other mistake is equating a slap with physical abuse. I'm no fan of corporal punishment, but there is a big difference between a slap and abuse.

Ditto.

Tritto

I guess it was okay that the guy also beat his wife. The article didn't need to include any further information about that unimportant issue.

It's acceptable because it's a cultural thing...

Maybe he was just acting out 50 shades of gray.

Hitting a child with a belt IS abuse, period.

Anything that leaves a mark for more than a few minutes (an acceptable slap would only leave a mark for a few minutes, at best - although slapping a child on the face is never appropriate, IMHO) is abuse. Montana allows corporal punishment, but no physical punishment that leaves a bruise, welt, wound, etc. is acceptable.

This is also not a funny subject. At. All.

So says

The things some of you joke about are really distasteful; it's more and more like a junior high school PE locker room around here.

I don't see any "jokes" about child abuse in this thread.

Neither do I.

oldr_n_wsr wrote:Maybe he was just acting out 50 shades of gray.

Right, only jokes about wife abuse. My bad!

Knowing how oldr isn't one to joke about other people's misfortune, I saw his post as a comment on the absurdity of the idea that a person's culture can be an excuse for being abusive. As in, if culture is an excuse, then imitating a character in a movie should also be acceptable defense.

But I understand your point.

So, while allowing that abuse is abuse how do you facilitate a transition from a culture which permits things which we don't, or treats them as 'normal', to our culture? Is treating them all as criminal acts the best and only way to do this?


I did some research sharing a lab with a post-doc from India at UCSC. Very nice guy, loving husband and caring father. I had been married recently so we shared wedding pictures and stories (Indian weddings are the shiznits!) and he asked me to proctor some experiments he was going to publish which contradicted existing articles. (there is some value in having a witness to measurements, observations &c) At one point he said that he had burned his child's face with hot metal for eating dirt. This is what he had been taught by his family was the proper way to stop children from eating dirt. ( a common thing that children do )

I was shocked, to put it mildly and said so. I said that he needed to get some advice from an expert on child rearing about what to do about the dirt-eating thing* but that burning a child would get him in jail if he did it again.

The point is that he was truly innocent of any criminal motives which deserved punishment, only stunted by his cultural upbringing. He was operating with a limited instruction set. ( like most conservative Christians ) So criminalizing his actions would only add to the harm to his family.


yrs,
rubato

* Yes I can look it up too. Its not really the point of the story is it?

ignorantia legis neminem excusat.

ok, so this wife beater and this child slapper walk into a bar.....


come head girl, difficult conversations are often a bit easier with a bit of humor.

bigskygal wrote:

oldr_n_wsr wrote:Maybe he was just acting out 50 shades of gray.

Right, only jokes about wife abuse. My bad!

I was recalling how one guy blamed the book/movie for his beating of his girlfriend/wife and relating it to this case.
Wife/female abuse is not a laughing matter thus no smilie/joke smilie was included in my post.

I once badly beat up a guy who hit is girlfriend (a girl I grew up with and was friends with. Wegrew up 4 houses away from each other). Sad to say they ended up married (I was not invited to the wedding) where he continued the abuse. She eventually had enough but only after two miscarriages (from being hit in the stomach) and more than a few trips to the hospital. What was once a very pretty young lady is now a physically and emotionally scared middle aged lady.

Joe Guy wrote:ignorantia legis neminem excusat.

True, but here we're trying to see what's in the best interest of a child; taking them from an otherwise good parent who sometimes hits them in a way that may be considered "abuse" (and we're not talking serious abuse here, whips and chains are clearly off limits; the judge talks about slapping and hitting, apparently finding the charges of hitting with a belt not proven) should not result in an automatic termination of parental rights or protracted litigation; it's not like the state has a lot of good alternatives (good foster homes are few and far between and institutional care is often not in a child's best interest, notwithstanding Newt's comments years ago). I think the judge is saying we have to consider the totality of the circumstances when we review these cases and someone who was acting in a way that they thought was good parenting should be given some discretion--especially if they show a recognition of the policy in their new country and what constitutes abuse, and will endeavor to mend their ways in the future.

Now, in the instant case, I am not sure how this came up and why the allegations of spousal abuse didn't weigh into the mix (generally spousal physical abuse, especially in the presence of children, is a big factor in deciding what's in a child's best interest). We just don't have the whole story.

Sorry for being touchy about it, oldr.

I've worked with abused women and kids for years and it's a sensitive subject - plus we had a family annihilator murder his wife and three precious babies (1, 3 & 5) then conveniently off himself here in Montana this past Sunday, and it's been all over the news all week and thus I'm REALLY FUCKING ANGRY at abusers and apologists.

But I know you are a good soul, and it's not usually you making the stupid sexist crap jokes around here.

Thanks bsg. I'm sorry I wrote something that could be taken as a joke on a subject like this.
On a similar note, a new girl in my tuesday night group meeting (not AA) is cleaning herself up (pills, heroin, depression, anxiety, bi-polar and soe other things) and has been telling as about the abuse she has suffered from her boyfriend. Her boyfriend and his father are a members of the Pagans (badass MC gang here on LI) and the son says he will kill her and their son if she tries to leave him. The counselor has alerted the authorities and I think they are trying to help her and the kid to "disappear".

Montana's a good place to disappear to and far from NY. PM me if you want me to put you in touch with some DV advocates out here that could help her resettle. I actually know DV advocates all over the country and I'd be happy to help in any way.

Also there is a process wherein she can actually get a new SS# if she can document her abuse and the threat to her life. Not all social workers and advocates know that, so you might want to tell her to look into that with a legal aid or private attorney. It makes it easier by far to go underground. And of course she should report every threat to law enforcement and the prosecutor's office - if they do nothing to save her life, at least her family might be able to sue for wrongful death if he does kill her.

I will suggest all of that to her. If she needs anything you can offer I will PM you.
Thanks