"At the bottom", surely?

[Gob]

London: If you're ever asked at a quiz night, "when and where did King John sign the Magna Carta", there are two possible answers.

The straightforward answer is, of course, precisely 800 years ago, June 15, 1215, on an island in the Thames at Runnymede in Surrey.

But the smart-arse answer is that he never did sign it. He "sealed" it – with the Great Seal – after meeting the rebellious barons at Runnymede on that date.



Nigel Saul, professor of mediaeval history at University of London, said the Magna Carta had "inauspicious beginnings" in a baronial rebellion over taxes, was "riddled with the jargon of feudalism" and lasted in effect only until September 1215, when letters arrived from the Pope releasing John from his oath and plunging England back into civil war.


Nevertheless, it is now venerated as "the embodiment of good law", thanks to its rediscovery in the 17th century as a symbol of liberty wielded during the struggles between king and parliament – and its invocation in the following century by the American colonists.

Below, Professor Saul gives some other facts about the Magna Carta not generally known outside the history books.

1. How did the Magna Carta get its name?

When British Prime Minister David Cameron was asked by talk show host David Letterman what Magna Carta meant, he hedged, saying "again, you are testing me".

To be fair, it's not quite as simple as you'd think.

Professor Saul explains:

"Originally, it was known as the 'charter of liberties' or the 'charter of Runnymede' or something like that. It acquired its more familiar name in the year 1217 [when] they lifted the forester clauses out of the charter, greatly added to them and put them in a separate document called the 'charter of the forest'. So, to differentiate it, the other one was called the 'great charter', Latin Magna Carta."

2. How long is Magna Carta?

It is just under 4000 words long – "quite long even by the standards of the day, for a royal charter".

"It would have taken clerks about four hours to write out each [copy]. If you look at the copies of [the original June 15] Magna Carta, they have all been written out by a different clerk, so they would have had a battery of Chancery clerks there at Runnymede, beavering away."

3. What language was it in?

The original versions were written in Latin. The first known written English version was made in 1534, more than three centuries later.

"The first translation of the charter was not into English, it was into French, and that was done almost immediately in June 1215. The French copy was written out and sent to Hampshire.

"It was translated first into French, because French was the international language of chivalry, of the nobility and gentry, the ruling classes.

"Almost certainly, it must have been read out in English before the end of the 13th century – there are strong grounds for believing it was read out in English to audiences in the counties no later than 1297 or 1300 – but the first surviving text copy is a print copy from 1534."

4. What is Magna Carta's greatest achievement?

It placed the king under the law.

"No ifs and buts, it did that.

"The king's view was that the king is above the law, he derived his authority to rule from God, he was answerable only to God and then, of course, only on the Day of Judgment; he was not answerable to you lot, the hoi polloi.

"The other view, of the theologians, was that the king was below the law, the law was natural law, it was God's law. And if it was God's law, then the king must be below it; he must obey the law himself, as well as enforce it.

"Those were the two rival points of view. In England, Magna Carta settled that debate once and for all."

5. What is 'scutage' and why does it matter?

Clause 12: No scutage nor aid shall be imposed on our kingdom, unless by common counsel.

Clause 14: For obtaining the common consent of the kingdom concerning the assessment of an aid … or of a scutage, we will cause to be summoned the archbishop, bishops, abbots, earls and greater barons".

"Scutage or aid, they are simply fancy, mediaeval feudal words for taxes," Professor Saul explains.

"What we read in clause 12, at the risk of some slight exaggeration, is what the rebel American colonials would have recognised in the 18th century as 'no taxation without representation'.

"If you are looking for an old piece of sheepskin parchment where that is written down for the first time, where the principle of consent to taxation, hitting you in the pocket, needs permission, where that is written down for the first time, it is in clause 12 of Magna Carta."

6. Was it a feminist document?

Magna Carta did actually do something significant for women – at least for well-born aristocratic women (you wouldn't expect it to do much for the peasantry back in the 13th century).

Clause 7: A widow, after the death of her husband, shall forthwith and without difficulty have her marriage portion and inheritance.

Clause 8: No widow shall be compelled to marry, so long as she prefers to remain without a husband.

"For aristocratic widows, Magna Carta was definitely good news."

But there is another recent suggestion that is even more intriguing. Magna Carta uses the word "freeman", including in the famous clause 39 guaranteeing that no freeman shall be arrested or imprisoned "except according to the lawful sentence of his peers and according to the Common Law".

In the original Latin, "freeman" was written "liber homo". The new theory is that "freeman was intended to be interpreted inclusively to mean no free man or woman", Professor Saul says.

"The evidence is in an obscure 12th-century law text in which 'homo' is interpreted in that way to mean woman as well as man."

7. Why should the Scots celebrate Magna Carta?

Almost certainly, Magna Carta incidentally freed Scotland from English subjection.

This is a theory that explains the "strange and obscure" clause 59, which liberated the "sisters and hostages of Alexander, king of Scotland".

In 1209, John had won his only recorded victory – beating the Scots. At the end of it, the Treaty of Norham enforced feudal subjection over Scotland.

"But in 1215 in this clause he was forced to reverse the Treaty of Norham ... which effectively restored Scottish independence."

8. Why is there a clause about wine, ale and corn?

The Magna Carta established a uniform measure across the realm for volumes of ale and corn – known as the "London quarter". It also established a standard width of cloth, and standard weights.

"Remember, the Londoners were supporting the barons. The turning point in the Civil War came on May 17 [1215] when London opened its gates to the barons, admitted them to London and put [Londoners'] money, their weight and their manpower behind the baronial cause.

"The barons were in business, King John had to negotiate. The support of the Londoners was crucial. So, of course, at Runnymede it was payback time for the Londoners.

"Clause 13 guaranteed the liberties of the City of London, and another clause dictated by the Londoners was clause 35, which harmonised measures right across the country and the measure was to be the London measure."

9. Why is the Magna Carta useful if you lose your passport?

Magna Carta guaranteed free movement of people in and out of the country, for merchants (clause 41) and everyone else (42).

"This is another clause slotted into the charter by the Londoners. Merchants travel, London was a great centre of international trade ... they wanted free movement in and out of the country.

"But so did another constituency, the Church. John had spent five years trying to prevent the archbishop of Canterbury, Stephen Langton, from coming into England from France. John had an interest in controlling movement. This clause said that has to stop."

[Lord Jim]

The Magna Carta is considered to be the first movement towards Democratic governance, in the post medieval period..

The predicate and template for The Declaration Of Independence...

And a time when the name "John" taken as King, was considered so infamous, that no British monarch in 900 years since that time has taken that name...

[Big RR]

I had to look this up; but recall it from early (probably 3rd grade) poetry recitations in grammar school:

John, John, bad King John
Shamed the throne that he sat on;
Not a scruple, not a straw,
Cared this monarch for the law;
Promises he daily broke;
None could trust a word he spoke;
So the Barons brought a Deed;
Down to rushy Runnymede,
Magna Carta was it hight,
Charter of the People’s Right,
Framed and fashioned to correct
Kings who act with disrespect –
And with stern and solemn air,
Pointing to the parchment there,
“Sign! Sign! Sign!” they said
“Sign, King John, or resign instead!”

John, John, turning pale,
Ground his teeth and bit his nail;
Chewed his long moustache; and then
Ground and bit and chewed again.
“Plague upon the People!” he
Muttered, “What are they to me?
Plague upon the Barons, too!”
(Here he had another chew,)
But the Barons, standing by,
Eyed him with a baleful eye;
Not a finger did they lift;
Not an eyelash did they shift;
But with one tremendous roar,
Even louder than before,
“Sign! Sign! Sign!” they said,
“SIGN, KING JOHN, OR RESIGN INSTEAD!”

It's by Eleanor Farjeon (don't know much about her)

[wesw]

nice. do they even teach about the magna carta anymore?

[rubato]

Oldest democracy in Europe. In continuous operation save a period of 45 years from 930 AD to the present.:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Althing

Althing
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Icelandic Parliament
Alþingi Íslendinga

The Alþingi (anglicised as Althing or Althingi) is the national parliament (literally: "[the] all-thing", or general assembly) of Iceland. It is the oldest extant parliamentary institution in the world together with the Jamtamot, today Jämtlands läns landsting, of Jämtland County, Sweden. The Althing was founded in 930 at Þingvellir, the "assembly fields" or "Parliament Plains", situated approximately 45 km east of what later became the country's capital, Reykjavík. This event marked the beginning of the Icelandic Commonwealth. Even after Iceland's union with Norway in 1262, the Althing still held its sessions at Þingvellir until 1799, when it was discontinued for 45 years. It was restored in 1844 and moved to Reykjavík, where it has resided ever since. The present parliament building, the Alþingishús, was built in 1881, of hewn Icelandic stone.

The constitution of Iceland provides for six electoral constituencies with the possibility of an increase to seven. The constituency boundaries are fixed by legislation. Each constituency elects nine members. In addition, each party is allocated seats based on its proportion of the overall national vote in order that the number of members in parliament for each political party should be more or less proportional to its overall electoral support. A party must have won at least five per cent of the national vote in order to be eligible for these proportionally distributed seats. Political participation in Iceland is very high: usually over 80 per cent of the electorate casts a ballot (81.4% in 2013). The current president of the Althing is Einar Kristinn Guðfinnsson.


Historical background
Foundation

The Althingi is the oldest extant parliamentary institution in the world.[1] Its establishment, as an outdoor assembly or thing held on the plains of Þingvellir ("Thing Fields") from about the year 930 AD,[2] laid the foundation for an independent national existence in Iceland. To begin with, the Althing was a general assembly of the Icelandic Commonwealth, where the country’s most powerful Leaders (goðar) met to decide on legislation and dispense justice. Then, all free men could attend the assemblies, which were usually the main social event of the year and drew large crowds of farmers and their families, parties involved in legal disputes, traders, craftsmen, storytellers and travellers. Those attending the assembly dwelt in temporary camps (búðir) during the session. The centre of the gathering was the Lögberg, or Law Rock, a rocky outcrop on which the Lawspeaker (lögsögumaður) took his seat as the presiding official of the assembly. His responsibilities included reciting aloud the laws in effect at the time. It was his duty to proclaim the procedural law of Althing to those attending the assembly each year. ... "

yrs,
rubato

[wesw]

rubato wins a cookie. it will be known as the althink and the think in the norse celtic alliance.

[Gob]

Can anybody tell me where it was claimed the UK was the oldest parliamentary government, or what relevance Aspergers boy's post has?

[wesw]

I think that rube showed an earlier move toward democracy in the medieval period, than the magna carta, thus refuting jim s point, rather successfully, thus earning a cookie.

no weed in his cookie tho.....

[MajGenl.Meade]

'tis a bit, innit? LJ - the 13th century isn't post medieval, sorry to say. It's as medieval as the Iceland thing.

But I'm sure what LJ meant to say is the magna carta is regarded as an early step toward democratic modes in the medieval period in countries that counted for more than diddley-squat.

(Bearing in mind that all futile countries begin with the letter "I")

[wesw]

Islamic state comes to mind at the top of that list.

[wesw]

...tho meade does downplay the importance of Scandinavia in Europe, including England, france ,the Baltics, and Russia, and indeed thru the Mediteranian and into asia minor, where they traded a long boat figurehead for some horses and rode home overland. that s the short version anyway....

[wesw]

...the only thing that stopped them was jesus....

[MajGenl.Meade]

Short and geographically challenged. Iceland is one of the Nordic countries, a group that includes Scandinavia (Norway, Denmark and Sweden), FInland, the Faroes and maybe something else.

[Gob]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... amentarism

[Gob]

This is good.

http://www.bl.uk/magna-carta

[wesw]

and Iceland was settled by Nordics from..... wait for it.... scandanavia