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Start them young

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:50 am
by Gob
America is again reeling from the horror of its gun violence with an 11-year-old boy being charged with murder after allegedly shooting dead an eight-year-old girl in Tennessee, days after the mass shooting in Oregon and a series of drive-by murders of children in Cleveland, Ohio.

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The 11-year-old boy has been charged with first-degree murder after he used his father's 12-gauge shotgun to shoot his next door neighbour, McKayla Dyer, through a window as she played outside on Saturday afternoon.

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America is again reeling from the horror of its gun violence with an 11-year-old boy being charged with murder after allegedly shooting dead an eight-year-old girl in Tennessee, days after the mass shooting in Oregon and a series of drive-by murders of children in Cleveland, Ohio.

The 11-year-old boy has been charged with first-degree murder after he used his father's 12-gauge shotgun to shoot his next door neighbour, McKayla Dyer, through a window as she played outside on Saturday afternoon.

But also on that Thursday evening a baby was shot dead in Cleveland, Ohio.

Five-month-old Aavielle Wakefield was in a car with her mother and grandmother on the way to the grocery store when five bullets struck the vehicle. One of them found its way into her chest.

"There is a hole in her shirt," a horrified woman can be heard explaining to a dispatcher in a 911 call. "Blood is coming out of her nose."

In the background you can hear a terrible keening.

"That's her mother holding her," the caller says at one point. "She won't give her up."

Another caller, his voice tight and fast, tells another dispatcher, "A little kid just got shot man, a little kid, y'all just had me on hold forever man! A little baby just got shot. Oh my God!"

How old is the baby, asks the dispatcher.

"Man, it's a baby," the caller says, crying now.

"A baby baby?" the dispatcher asks.

"A baby," the man confirms through his sobs.

Aavielle was not the only child to die like this in Cleveland in the past month, just the youngest.

Ramon Burnett, 5, was shot dead in a drive-by outside his grandmother's apartment on the afternoon September 4, the Friday of the Labour Day long weekend. Earlier that day he had been given a quarter by a family member. He used it to buy a home-made slushy from a neighbour.

Then he went out to toss a football with neighbourhood kids. That was when he was shot dead.

Three days later they buried Ramon.

Major Howard, 3, was sitting in a car when he was hit in another drive-by. He was so little there was space for only four bearers to carry his casket, which was adorned with balloons rather than flowers.

In a nation numbed either by grief, cynicism or helplessness in the relentless death toll wrought by its guns, the killings have prompted local outrage.
Cleveland's police chief, Calvin Williams, wept as he faced a press conference about the killing. "It's enough. Enough is enough," he said continued. "When are we going to stop counting babies killed out there?"
LeBron James, America's most famous basketball player and Cleveland's favourite son, called for gun law reform.

"There's no room for that," he said in an interview with AP. "There's no room for guns, first of all, but then for violence toward kids or anybody. I see the news go across my phone and I'm sitting there in front of my three kids, so it automatically just hit me. It's not just in Cleveland, it's the whole nation that goes through this as well. We all hurt from it."

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/us-gun-viol ... z3nkSDyOY6

Re: Start them young

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 2:00 am
by MajGenl.Meade
Sounds like the cops aren't shooting enough murderers ???

Re: Start them young

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 3:51 am
by BoSoxGal
The boy's possibly a budding sociopath and needs to be dealt with through the juvenile justice system, with room for transfer to the adult system at age 18 if he doesn't show progress toward rehabilitation.

His father needs to go to prison for 25 years to life for allowing the boy access to a loaded firearm without strict supervision. Only when parents who facilitate these types of tragedies by failure to safeguard their weapons are punished in the harshest fashion will these incidents cease to occur.

Poor baby girl.

Re: Start them young

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 3:51 am
by MajGenl.Meade
What she said

Re: Start them young

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 3:53 am
by rubato
If only there had been a good 11 year old with a gun. If only. Oh, there would still be a dead child but we could feel good about it that way.


Bring my Bourbon, my Bible and my Beretta so we can pray for wisdom.


yrs,
rubato

Re: Start them young

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 3:58 am
by BoSoxGal
I should add that I didn't read the whole story before replying but was going off the story I read last night on DailyMail; the 11 year old who shot the little girl had bullied her previously and murdered her because she refused to show him her new puppy.

The deaths of babies and young children in drive by shootings is always a tragedy; those responsible should be punished harshly for committing felony murder. It's often difficult for the perpetrators to be identified and prosecuted because of the complexities of relations between police and citizens in neighborhoods where this type of incident often occurs - another reason we need reform of policing practices in this country.

Re: Start them young

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 2:31 pm
by rubato
We should just require that anyone who owns a firearm have a $2,000,000 liability insurance policy and let the ins. companies take care of requiring and monitoring safe storage, gun safety classes &c.

If you are caught with a gun and no ins. it's an automatic 6 months in jail, all guns are confiscated and destroyed and you lose the right possess a gun for 10 years.

Anyone who sells, gives or otherwise transfers a gun is required to see that the person receiving a gun has ins. and keep records indefinately.

Insurance companies can price insurance as they see fit based on caliber, magazine capacity and type of weapon.

yrs,
rubato

Re: Start them young

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 2:33 pm
by wesw
ah yes, the insurance companies are the answer....

Re: Start them young

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 2:36 pm
by rubato
wesw wrote:ah yes, the insurance companies are the answer....

The NRA and gun owners have already failed and refused to accept responsibility. Time to try something else.



yrs,
rubato

Re: Start them young

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 2:44 pm
by Big RR
rubato--before insurance you first have to change the liability laws to place financial liability on gun owners for damages caused with the unauthorized use of their guns. Right now in most cases liability does not attach other than through the breach of some sort of regulation for storage.

Re: Start them young

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 2:51 pm
by MajGenl.Meade
...and good luck forcing any insurance company to take on the kind of risk rubato contemplates. Insurance may be compulsory for the individual but in most jurisdictions there is no ability to force an insurance company to cover a particular risk. Thus, a state may require that if an insurance company offers auto insurance it MUST offer minimum liability (only) policies. But if providing a particular coverage becomes onerous, the company is usually able to cease offering all of the coverages. If a homeowner policy MUST cover hurricane risk in some areas, it may be cheaper to stop selling home insurance.

There may be specialist companies (with very specialist prices) formed to cover liability for guns, but owners are unlikely in the main to spend the money. It might mean less people buy guns. But perhaps that's the point - require proof of insurance before permitting a gun to be registered and purchased. It works for car leasing companies and mortgage banks.

To Big RR's point - personal lines liability policies do not cover the illegal use of a homeowner's hammer to inflict injury. For that matter, purposeful use by the owner is not going to fly either - a person who burns down their own house is not covered and nor is a person who shoots his dad or stabs him or pushes him off a cliff.

Re: Start them young

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 2:55 pm
by wesw
ah but driving and home ownership are privileges that anyone may enjoy, gun ownership is a right and not so easily regulated.

we have turned over our health to the mercy of the insurance companies already, will we put our liberty in their hands as well?

I think not.

Re: Start them young

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 3:10 pm
by Crackpot
But you have no issue regulating voting.

Re: Start them young

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 3:16 pm
by wesw
huh?

Re: Start them young

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 3:18 pm
by wesw
oh, I have no issue with providing ID before being allowed to buy a gun, we don t want illegals buying them or voting.....

Re: Start them young

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 3:30 pm
by Big RR
I would guess the majority of gun deaths/injuries are the result of intentional (often criminal) action, which are generally excluded from liability coverage. As for those due to negligience, there probably are a pretty small number due to negligence of the owner in handling the gun (like in the proverbial accident while the gun was being cleaned :D ), but the others involve a third party who gets the gun through theft or other taking and uses it. Few jurisdictions impose liability on the gun owner in such a case (just like there is usually no liability if someone steals your car and kills/injures someone), so I fail to see what liability the gun ownership insurance would cover.

And let's not forget, it is possible that imposing insurance requirements by federal law might well be unconstitutional, Obamacare narrowly survived such a challenge by saying that the law amounted to a choice between buying insurance or paying a tax if you choose not to (to help cover the cost of the uninsured). Not sure a similar law could be put together for gun ownership insurance.

Re: Start them young

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 5:35 pm
by oldr_n_wsr
the law amounted to a choice between buying insurance or paying a tax if you choose not to (to help cover the cost of the uninsured).
There we go.
Buy gun insurance if you have a gun or pay a tax if you don't own a gun to help those who are too poor to buy gun insurance (but do have guns).
:mrgreen:

ETA
I already have a fee on my auto insurance for covering the uninsured motorists. :o

Re: Start them young

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 5:42 pm
by Big RR
oldr--I'm not certain about NY, but I think that uninsured motorist fee covers injuries to you caused by uninsured motorists. The person who owns the car may not be liable.

As for your proposal, I'd like to see how the courts view it, good luck. But you'd have to couch it not as money to pay for insurance for poor gun owners, rather, it would have to be to defray federal costs which arise because gun owners' negligence results in death and injuries that cost the US government a lot. Good Luck!

Re: Start them young

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 5:59 pm
by oldr_n_wsr
oldr--I'm not certain about NY, but I think that uninsured motorist fee covers injuries to you caused by uninsured motorists. The person who owns the car may not be liable.
I think it is for injuries. I forget. I think the person driving the car should be held liable. Of course if they don't have insurance they probably don't have anything to go after anyway. I found that out in an accident when someone rear ended me on the LIE. Caused a 5 car chain reaction. I was first hit, pushed forward into another car who pushed into another......

Re: Start them young

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 6:46 pm
by Big RR
I think the dirver would be liable, but if uninsured and judgment proof (having no assets) as most uninsured people are), the uninsured coverage kicks in for your injuries to be sure your get the treatment you need.