Plan B Forum

As of 11AM Sunday - 50 dead/53 wounded.

I weep for my country. And yes, there are still too many guns. Period.

Why is it so terrible to die by a 'mass shooting'? It could have been much worse if cruder methods had been used instead of some of those 'too many guns'

Such as: block the exits by parking a van against the emergency doors, chaining or applying quick-set glue to other exits, bring in a fire bomb. You do remember pressure cooker bombs in Boston? A fire bomb is just as easy to build.

Dead is dead. McVeigh with out a gun, and without ISIS--168 dead, more than 600 injured. Largest mass shooting? Ruby Ridge 76 dead, but that doesn't count because the government did it.

My worst fear is what this will do for Trump.

snailgate

Ruby Ridge

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge

2 killed 2 wounded.


yrs,
rubato

Burning Petard wrote:Dead is dead. McVeigh with out a gun, and without ISIS--168 dead, more than 600 injured. Largest mass shooting? Ruby Ridge 76 dead, but that doesn't count because the government did it.

rubato wrote:Ruby Ridge

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge

2 killed 2 wounded.

I believe BP is thinking of Waco and the climactic denouement of the Branch Davidian stand-off.
There were also four gov't (ATF agents) and six Branch Davidians killed in the initial attempt to serve warrants (search and arrest warrants as a result of alleged weapons violations; allegations which eventually proved to be true) that led to the two-month-long standoff and siege.

And there's no way of knowing for certain whether or not the deaths were avoidable or if Koresh and his followers had always intended to die in a massive Götterdämmerung-like suicide pact.  The fact that no one attempted to flee from the burning compound once the fire got started would certainly lend credence to that supposition.

-"BB"-

Yes indeed. I am truly unable to think clearly about this kind of stuff. Waco.

(search and arrest warrants as a result of alleged weapons violations; allegations which eventually proved to be true) that led to the two-month-long standoff and siege.

Hard say the warrants were justified when they were so vague and no attempt to arrest was made before the siege as the leaders traveled freely into town, and there was no physical evidence recovered on site on site to justify it because the feds burned and then bulldozed everything.

Guns were much more easily obtained by anyone, even if criminal, before JFK was shot with a mail order military surplus rifle. And that is my observation. The current Washington Post web page points out that these kinds of shootings are coming more frequent and more deadly. But I note guns laws have also grown more restrictive over the same period. What is changing? Why do more people act this way?

snailgate

Perhaps it's because they were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Though they know God’s righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

It seems to be pretty widespread.

I sincerely hope you mean the shooters and not the victims. I'm honestly not sure.

What an utter shitstain, can someone take a brick hammer to this filth?

A Texas politician tweeted a homophobic message just hours after 50 people were murdered in a gay club in Orlando.
In the deadliest gun massacre in US history, a suspected Islamic extremist held more than 100 people hostage on Saturday night before gunning them down.
As the country reels in response to the news, Lieutenant Governor of Texas Dan Patrick - a fierce anti-LGBT campaigner - posted a picture of a psalm implying men are responsible for their own fate.

Guinevere wrote:I sincerely hope you mean the shooters and not the victims. I'm honestly not sure.

It is a response to the question, "why do more people act this way" which seemed to me to deal with the question as to why more people turn to acts of political (?) terror and violence than was the case in 1963 prior to November 22 of that year.

Guns are now far more difficult to obtain than in 1963. What has changed? People.

I take your point, otherwise. Barring Islamic (or claimed Islamic) terrorists, it certainly is my belief that the laissez-faire liberalisation of society in general (e.g. the denial of "shame") creates the circumstances and the environment in which murder, the ultimate in bad manners, is nurtured.

In this particular instance, I was not referring to the victims but to the shooters. But we all, me no less than others, are part of the deconstruction of social coherence that brings out Trump and Sanders (who I voted for, bear in mind), riding the waves of discontent.

After Sandy Hook, we said "NEVER AGAIN".
That was in December 2012.  So what did we, as a nation, do?

Answer:  Absolutely nuthin'.  We cried crocodile tears; piled up stacks of teddy bears in memory of the victims; made impassioned speeches; yet still continued to worship a poorly-worded clause in our constitution about bearing weapons, written at a time when the only weapons available were swords, spears, clubs, and single-shot muskets — and there was no guarantee that they were all that accurate or that they would even work when the trigger was pulled.

And as a result, in the three and a half years (1275 days) since Sandy Hook, America has experienced almost ONE THOUSAND MORE instances of mass shootings — an average of one every 30 point something hours.

I can't help but point to the statistic in the linked article above that Americans own something like 42% of the world's civilian-owned guns, even though we represent only about 4.5% of the total population of the planet.  At what point will enough eventually become more than enough and someone in government will finally grow a pair and f*cking do something about it?

-"BB"-

Bicycle Bill wrote:At what point will enough eventually become more than enough and someone in government will finally grow a pair and f*cking do something about it?

What can "someone in government" do to stop mass shootings? Declare war on the NRA? Outlaw guns? Outlaw ammunition?

If you have a plan, I'd like to see it...

Joe Guy wrote:

Bicycle Bill wrote:At what point will enough eventually become more than enough and someone in government will finally grow a pair and f*cking do something about it?

What can "someone in government" do to stop mass shootings? Declare war on the NRA? Outlaw guns? Outlaw ammunition?

If you have a plan, I'd like to see it...

Those all sound like a good point at which to start...

Seriously, the first thing to do would be to rewrite the Second Amendment to reflect the reality of 2016 rather than the historic reality of 1786.  And don't look so aghast ... other amendments have been added that rewrite or redefine parts of the original document; and remember that there is historical precedent for even adding an amendment and then later nullifying that amendment (the Eighteenth Amendment, ratified in 1919 and later repealed by the Twenty-first Amendment fourteen years later).

And while I don't think we necessarily need to "declare war" on the NRA, their behind-the-scenes, "Godfather"-like power in the halls of the legislative branch needs to be diminished.

-"BB"-

Joe Guy wrote:
If you have a plan, I'd like to see it...

Take a quarter of the money spent currently on "defence", and spend it on education instead.

What Europe ready to start pulling it's weight (and shouldering the blame)?

Bicycle Bill wrote:After Sandy Hook, we said "NEVER AGAIN".
That was in December 2012.  So what did we, as a nation, do?

Answer:  Absolutely nuthin'.  We cried crocodile tears; piled up stacks of teddy bears in memory of the victims; made impassioned speeches; yet still continued to worship a poorly-worded clause in our constitution about bearing weapons, written at a time when the only weapons available were swords, spears, clubs, and single-shot muskets — and there was no guarantee that they were all that accurate or that they would even work when the trigger was pulled.

And as a result, in the three and a half years (1275 days) since Sandy Hook, America has experienced almost ONE THOUSAND MORE instances of mass shootings — an average of one every 30 point something hours.

I can't help but point to the statistic in the linked article above that Americans own something like 42% of the world's civilian-owned guns, even though we represent only about 4.5% of the total population of the planet.  At what point will enough eventually become more than enough and someone in government will finally grow a pair and f*cking do something about it?
-"BB"-

They did do something about it in new York city ; people on the streets were stopped and searched and I believe the crime rate came down there.

You can change gun laws all you want, but the fact remains the bad guys will still find a way to have guns.

Both of the Orlando Florida shootings were in so called "Gun free zones".

Christina Grimmie’s brother had to tackle the idiot who shot her. The only one there with a gun was the shooter, who shot himself after being caught.

Had there been one or more people with concealed carry permits inside the bar, there would have probably been far fewer casualties. It is unlawful to carry an otherwise legal gun into an establishment that serves alcohol in Florida.

Give me a fucking break. There was one off duty cop already on site and he was quickly joined by two others who all engaged in a firefight with the guy. They backed off when he retreated into the club and was holding everybody hostage, because they knew that no one inside or outside was going to have a clean shot at him. 11 SWAT members eventually had to storm the place and they had to kill or injure several dozen people before they could confirm that they had killed the perp.

Let me be clear - I am not blaming the police; some hostage situations do not allow a better outcome than this. But it's utterly preposterous to assert that a couple or three amateurs would have serendipitously been able to accomplish what 14 trained police officers could not do without massive casualties among the hostages.

Thank you, Scooter, for pointing out the inconvenient truth.

-"BB"-

Exactly Scooter.

It is bullshit to say more guns would have made us more safe, and bullshit to suggest gun control won't make a difference. The shooter, investigated by the FBI, possibly mentally ill, allegations of spousal abuse, is exactly the kind of man who should never have been allowed to have weapons in the first place.

Anyone who disagrees is just a mouthpiece of the NRA.

That last sentence really opens the cliff for rational debate.....