Plan B Forum

Posted: **Sun Jul 24, 2016 11:49 pm**

In a memorable episode of Seinfeld, two characters hatch a plot: instead of returning bottles in New York for a 5-cent refund, round up a load of containers and run them to Michigan, where the return is double, at 10 cents each.

In reality, the ploy – returning bottles purchased outside of Michigan to capitalize on the refund – is illegal under the state’s bottle deposit law. And a Michigan resident is finding out just how steep the penalties could be.

Brian Everidge, who is accused of attempting to “return” more than 10,000 bottles from other states, faces up to five years in prison for one felony count of beverage return of non-refundable bottles.

The incident dates to late April, when a Michigan state trooper pulled over Everidge – who was driving a rented Budget box truck in Tyrone Township, Michigan, about 40 miles north-west of Detroit – for speeding.

The officer, Clifford Lyden, testified at a court hearing on Thursday that Everidge’s truck was filled with plastic bags holding thousands of aluminum cans.

“I don’t think you could have put another five or 10 cans in here,” Lyden said. “It was packed.”

Everidge indicated the cans were from Kentucky, the officer said, “and his intent was to return them; he just didn’t say where he was going to return them”.

Livingston County district judge Suzanne Geddis found on Thursday that there was probable cause that Everidge violated state law, court records show, and Everidge will go to trial.

William J Vailliencourt, the prosecutor for Livingston County, declined to comment, citing the pending trial. But he said his office “has never had a case like this”.

Everidge couldn’t be reached, and his attorney, Marcus Wilcox, declined to comment.

Posted: **Mon Jul 25, 2016 1:19 am**

If you live in Minnesota (no refund) but close enough to the border with, say, Iowa (5¢ per can or bottle) you can get away with it as long as you don't get as greedy as Everidge did. Take a couple hundred at a time over to the mechanical counter/crusher machines found outside most grocery stores and feed them in; so long as they are major label brands and marked (usually embossed into the aluminum top of the cans, or printed right on the label of beer or soda bottles) just feed 'em in, collect the printed-out receipt, and then go inside and shop. Turn it in when you check out, and you may have whittled up to ten bucks or so off your grocery bill.

-"BB"-

Posted: **Mon Jul 25, 2016 10:18 am**

Dont the Cops have anything pressing to do there?Reminds of the other week I was cruising down I64 and my load shifted on my pickup and I lost a couple of cheap lawn chairs and plastic shelving,a Lady of course couldnt avoid one and it scratched Her paint (I think ) ,boy she was taking pictures with Her cell phone ,any rate I was man enough to turn around and clean the road up and give Her my insurance info as I was ready to leave after we got things settled a pretty rude(at the time state trooper pulls in behind me and gives me a ticket(gotta fill those quota s somehow(not really -but sure looks good promotion wise ) Anyway the Officers demeanor improved after He seen how nice I was and wasnt an ax murderer or something.I guess cant nothing be settled between two parties without the state being involved ,the moral is ,really make sure your load is secured and check it from time to time,what seems secure ,is not always that way ,anyway no serious injuries and the Officer at the end was very nice and professional ,I thanked Him resecured the load and went my way .(I hate driving anymore and given the choice someone else can always have the Helm.

Posted: **Mon Jul 25, 2016 12:50 pm**

So...he faces more prison time for returning a truckload of cans than my brother got for robbing a liquor store with an axe while high on drugs.

Excuse me, I need to activate the portal and return to my home planet now.

Posted: **Mon Jul 25, 2016 1:17 pm**

I agree that the top penalty at least (which I assume he won't get) seems excessive; apparently it's based on Michigan's standard theft laws:

Felony Theft in Michigan. If the property stolen is valued at $1,000 or more but less than $20,000 -- or if the property is a motor vehicle, trailer, or certain motor vehicle part -- theft is a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than five years, or a fine of not more than $10,000 or three times the value of the property stolen, whichever is greater, or both imprisonment and a fine. (Mich. Comp. Laws § 750.356(3), § 750.356a(1).)

http://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/re ... es-defense

(a) If the person returns 25 or more but not more than 100 nonreturnable containers, the person may be ordered to pay a civil fine of not more than $100.00.

(b) If the person returns more than 100 but fewer than 10,000 nonreturnable containers, or violates subdivision (a) for a second or subsequent time, the person is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 93 days or a fine of not more than $1,000.00, or both.

(c) If the person returns more than 100 but fewer than 10,000 nonreturnable containers for a second or subsequent time, the person is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 1 year or a fine of not more than $2,000.00, or both.

(d) If the person returns 10,000 or more nonreturnable containers, the person is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 5 years or a fine of not more than $5,000.00, or both.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(go0dqeb3i4wic42xabhzcy4y))/mileg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-445-574a

10,000 cans at 10 cents a can would just barely hit the $1000 mark...

Apparently this poor schlep's mistake was not limiting his can count to 9,999...

When you figure in his cost of gas driving from Michigan to Kentucky and back, and the cost of the rental truck, and whatever other costs he had while on this trip, (food, etc) and the number of hours it must have taken to amass 10,000 cans, it's unlikely that this master thief would have cleared much more than three bucks an hour for this cunning plan....

Posted: **Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:03 pm**

But he didn't return them, it was only attempted theft. The public resources expended to put him through the criminal justice system will far outpace his thought crime. I can't believe he's not getting deferred prosecution - unless he has a substantial criminal history, that's the only thing that justifies it.

Probably a prosecutor wanting to ratchet up his conviction rate.

Posted: **Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:14 pm**

BoSoxGal wrote:But he didn't return them, it was only attempted theft. The public resources expended to put him through the criminal justice system will far outpace his thought crime. I can't believe he's not getting deferred prosecution - unless he has a substantial criminal history, that's the only thing that justifies it.

Probably a prosecutor wanting to ratchet up his conviction rate.

Or someone who can see others contemplating similar actions so, like Barney Fife, he wants to "nip it in the bud" and will therefore make an example of this malefactor.

-"BB"-

Posted: **Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:54 pm**

It didn't work out for Kramer and Newman either. Guess he didn't watch to the end of the episode.

Here's a question, though. Before these bottle deposit laws got started, bottles and cans were a regular eyesore along roadways, and also filled up trash cans. But since the advent of the deposit laws, recycling programs have improved greatly in the types of items taken and the ease of recycling (e.g., curbside pickup). So, for those in states without deposits, is there any evidence that there is less recycling or more littering of can and bottles? I have not noticed any in my travels, but haven't really focused on it. On recycling day, you can see over 1/2 the recycling containers here are full of 5-cent bottle returns (that is, people opting to give up their 5-cent per bottle refund for the ease of just throwing them into glass recycling).

Posted: **Mon Jul 25, 2016 6:01 pm**

On recycling day, you can see over 1/2 the recycling containers here are full of 5-cent bottle returns (that is, people opting to give up their 5-cent per bottle refund for the ease of just throwing them into glass recycling).

I see that on the night before recycling day (wednesday). Wednesday morning however the containers are only about 1/2 full with all the deposit containers having been removed sometime during the overnight.

Posted: **Mon Jul 25, 2016 6:03 pm**

I think it would be pretty difficult to separate out the effects of deposits from the expansion of curbside recycling programs. In terms of street litter, though, my gut tells me that you wouldn't have homeless and other indigent people combing the streets with shopping carts picking up cans and bottles for the bit of cash they can get for redeeming them.

Posted: **Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:25 pm**

Living in Wisconsin we don't have a deposit law but I'm close enough to Iowa, which has had a deposit law in place for better than 35 years (since mid-1979). With my cycling travels I have spent a fair amount of time in Iowa since the bill was passed and based on personal observation I feel that the law has definitely reduced the amount of empty bottles and cans thrown along the side of the road as consumers hold on to the containers to return them for the deposit themselves, or they are quickly scavenged by others. This also seems to have had an additional benefit as there also doesn't seem to be as much other non-deposit crap being discarded out car windows either.

-"BB"-

Posted: **Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:40 pm**

as consumers hold on to the containers to return them for the deposit themselves, or they are quickly scavenged by others.

I would guess that it's much more of the latter than the former...

Also you now have a lot of "adopt a highway" programs where you have different civic groups doing roadside clean up on stretches of interstate, and of course also people participating in court ordered "community service" performing that work...

So there's probably a combination of reasons for why highway roadsides are much less trash strewn then they used to be...

Posted: **Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:45 pm**

Lord Jim wrote:
as consumers hold on to the containers to return them for the deposit themselves, or they are quickly scavenged by others.
I would guess that it's much more of the latter than the former...

Also you now have a lot of "adopt a highway" programs where you have different civic groups doing roadside clean up on stretches of interstate, and of course also people participating in court ordered "community service" performing that work...

So there's probably a combination of reasons for why highway roadsides are much less trash strewn then they used to be...

Another reason could be the fact that almost all cars now run with their windows up and the air conditioning on, rather than the old days where you had to drive with the windows open to cool down the interior. So now you have to consciously lower the window in order to be a slob.

-"BB"-

Posted: **Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:57 pm**

I've never seen where these return systems were particularly convenient. Washington isn't a deposit/212return State- basically you just toss all bottles and cans into the recycling bins which are required by law if you have trash service. But Oregon is a return state, and most stores have these "Reverse Vending Machines" where you feed the bottles and cans into the machine and if it feels like it it accepts the bottle/can and when you're done, it gives you a receipt that you take into the store for a refund. Every time I've been to a store in Oregon there's been a huge line to those machines, and often they're full so you can't use them. They only read undamaged cans and bottles, so crushing the cans is right out, and most only accept UPC symbols for items sold at that store. So most people just throw the cans and bottles in the recycling or trash. The machines are generally just used by folks who collect cans as an income stream, though I did read somewhere that the stores limit the number of returns to around 100 a day so the most you'd get at a 5-cent return rate is $5 unless you hop from store to store.

Back when I was a kid my Dad always collected all his cans, and every few months we would take the bags of crushed cans to the recycling center and got maybe a couple bucks for the trouble. Back in the 80s there were still "return bottles" which got cleaned and reused- doesn't happen much anymore, those were worth more. My Dad didn't drink beer so where he got the bottles I dunno- maybe he got them from my grandpa, who had a dedicated beer fridge going all the way back to the 1950s. My Great Grandfather supplemented his retirement by collecting cans and bottles down at the fishing boat docks- he just jumped in the trash bins and filled his truck and later his car when he got rid of the truck (that car reeked of rotten beer when I brought it back to sell it just before he died). In the late 70s he actually made Guinness Book of World Records for the most cans collected by an individual in a year. They even sent out a media team who staged a photoshoot with his truck stacked 15 feet high with bags of cans. He used his garage to separate bottles by color and whether they were "return" bottles, and the recycling company even gave him empty bottle flats to fill at home. There were times a full half of his 2-car garage was full of cans and flats of empty bottles. When he died in the early 1990s the city locked up the dumpsters and prohibited scavenging.

My best friend and I spent one summer in our early teens combing the neighborhood for cans and bottles, dragging a Radio Flyer around. Got questioned by the cops when we were picking bottles out of the bushes behind the State Liquor Store. They were OK with it as long as we stayed out of the trash cans and dumpsters. I think we got a grand total of $3.25 each for 2 weeks work, we had hundreds of pounds of glass and 72 pounds of cans. and that figure includes the two 25 cent 1-gallon milk bottles we found in the brambles that belonged to the local Deli. Nowadays with metal prices so low it's not worth the effort. Even with a full pickup load of crushed cans it's not worth the gas to drive to the recycling center, or the hassle of waiting around a bunch of tweakers selling stolen copper pipe and wire.

Posted: **Mon Jul 25, 2016 11:58 pm**

oldr_n_wsr wrote:
On recycling day, you can see over 1/2 the recycling containers here are full of 5-cent bottle returns (that is, people opting to give up their 5-cent per bottle refund for the ease of just throwing them into glass recycling).
I see that on the night before recycling day (wednesday). Wednesday morning however the containers are only about 1/2 full with all the deposit containers having been removed sometime during the overnight.

Yeah: the bums make their rounds and pick them out.

Posted: **Tue Jul 26, 2016 12:02 am**

You'd be amazed what some people redeem. I have seen vanloads, cargo vans stuffed to the roof. I'm talking a couple hundred DOLLARS worth...there is one store that does a semi-trailer full of redemption through its machines EVERY DAY. (I work in the beverage industry.)

Posted: **Tue Jul 26, 2016 12:06 am**

Both the Boy Scouts and the Lions take returnable bottles and cans, so I just drop my bin there every month or so, and figure if they are doing the work, they can have the pennies (ok, nickles and dimes).

My Mom used to collect returnables (Maine has a very broad bottle bill) and every alternate putting the proceeds in the boys piggy banks every quarter. Now that she no longer drives, I tried to do it in her place, but it really is too much work and way low on my priority list. So Boys Scouts/Lions it is.

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