A good compromise let the people decide issues

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liberty
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A good compromise let the people decide issues

Post by liberty »

How can the Demorat governor force the state’s GOP law makers to return to the state, the capital or anywhere for that matter? Wouldn’t that be kidnapping? What law gives her that power? Any such law would be unconstitutional on the grounds of slavery or forced servitude, but Demorats don’t care about law.

There is a good compromise let the people decide the issues.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/apnew ... spartandhp

SALEM, Ore. (AP) — Oregon Gov. Kate Brown said Monday she won't negotiate with Republicans who walked out to thwart landmark climate legislation, at least not until they return to the Capitol.

All eleven Republican senators didn't show up to work for a fifth day Monday, denying Democrats the number of lawmakers needed to vote on a potential statewide cap and trade plan.

Brown, a Democrat, deployed the Oregon State Police last week to seek out Republicans, but many fled the state and remain outside the police's jurisdiction.

Senate Minority Leader Herman Baertschiger said in a statement he has yet to reach a deal with Democrats and that Republicans "intend to remain out of state." Democrats have an 18 to 11 majority but need 20 members to conduct business under state law.

Brown blasted Baertschiger in an interview with The Associated Press, saying she refuses to negotiate with the Senate Minority Leader until he returns to the building.
"If he wants to negotiate with the governor of the state of Oregon, he needs to be in the building," she said. "Or at least be in the state of Oregon."

A spokeswoman for Baertschiger said he was unavailable to comment beyond the statement.
Republicans are protesting what could be the nation's second statewide cap and trade program. The measure would dramatically reduce greenhouse gases in Oregon by 2050 by capping carbon emissions and requiring businesses to buy or trade for an ever-dwindling pool of pollution "allowances."

Democrats say the program is critical to make Oregon a leader in the fight against climate change and will ultimately create jobs and transform the economy.
Republicans and other opponents, including the state's struggling timber industry, say the proposal will kill jobs, raise the cost of fuel and gut small businesses in rural areas. They also say that they've been left out of policy negotiations, and that the measure represents an urban majority enforcing their priorities against the will of rural Oregon residents.
"To say that Republicans haven't had a seat at the table is hogwash, baloney and a lot of other things that I can't mention in polite company," said Brown.

She said that her office spent hours negotiating with Republicans last week and that "there were many things put on the table" for a potential compromise. Republicans "walked" from those options, she said.
The governor also rejected conservatives' push to send the measure to the ballot, saying that voters already approved strong climate policy when they elected a Democratic governor and a Democratic supermajority in the statehouse.
This is the second time Senate Republicans, who are in the minority, walked off the job to block a vote. Conservatives walked out for four days in May to block a $2 billion school funding increase, returning only when the governor struck a deal to table legislation on gun control and vaccine requirements.

Part of that agreement, said Brown, was that Republicans wouldn't walk out again.
"I took priorities off the table that were key priorities for me and for Democrats generally. Sen. Baertschiger said three times they would not walk out again," she said. "He broke that deal."

This time, Republicans' walkout attracted national attention after a tumultuous weekend that began with the Senate leader ordering the Capitol closed because of a "possible militia threat" from far-right groups, who threatened to join a peaceful protest organized by local Republicans.

One of those groups, the Oregon Three Percenters, joined an armed takeover of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge in 2016 and has offered safe passage to senators on the run.
The threat, however, never materialized and fewer than 100 people showed up.
The governor said Statehouse closure and threats from Sen. Brian Boquist that state troopers should "come heavily armed" when they bring him back to the Capitol reflects a tense partisan divide felt on the national level.

"We thought in Oregon that we were above all that, above this type of divisive and partisan politics," she said. "It's really clear that what is happening in Washington, D.C., is seeping out to the states and I think that is the most unfortunate thing of all."
Democrats have until the end of the week to get Republicans back to the building before the legislative session is set to end.

Legislators have yet to approve a majority of the state budget and other Democratic priorities addressing affordable housing, paid family leave and driver's licenses for immigrants in the country illegally.
I expected to be placed in an air force combat position such as security police, forward air control, pararescue or E.O.D. I would have liked dog handler. I had heard about the dog Nemo and was highly impressed. “SFB” is sad I didn’t end up in E.O.D.

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Scooter
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Re: A good compromise let the people decide issues

Post by Scooter »

You didn't have a thing to say about it when Texas Republicans sent state police after Democratic legislators who refused to return in order to prevent a redistricting plan from passing.

Where were the howls that "Republicans don't care about law" then?
This is the second time Senate Republicans, who are in the minority, walked off the job to block a vote. Conservatives walked out for four days in May to block a $2 billion school funding increase, returning only when the governor struck a deal to table legislation on gun control and vaccine requirements.

Part of that agreement, said Brown, was that Republicans wouldn't walk out again.
I guess that, in addition to not caring about law, Republicans can't be trusted to keep their word, either.
"If you don't have a seat at the table, you're on the menu."

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Big RR
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Re: A good compromise let the people decide issues

Post by Big RR »

Lib--how do we "let the people decide" when their representatives don't even show up to debate or vote?

Personally, I have no problem with someone (I'd prefer it a legislative head as opposed to the executive) having the power to compel elected officials to do their job and at least show up for important legislative sessions. Or do you prefer a bunch of petulant jerks holding the legislature hostage (and silencing the only voice the people have in passing legislation) by refusing to do the job they were elected to do?

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Lord Jim
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Re: A good compromise let the people decide issues

Post by Lord Jim »

Texas Republicans sent state police after Democratic legislators who refused to return in order to prevent a redistricting plan from passing.
I remembered that and was going to post about it, (as I recall Tom DeLay was also very involved)...

I was opposed to the actions of the Democratic legislators in that case, and I'm opposed to the actions of the Republican legislators in the current case...(even though from a policy standpoint I oppose "cap and tax")

I agree with what Big RR said:
I have no problem with someone (I'd prefer it a legislative head as opposed to the executive) having the power to compel elected officials to do their job and at least show up for important legislative sessions. Or do you prefer a bunch of petulant jerks holding the legislature hostage (and silencing the only voice the people have in passing legislation) by refusing to do the job they were elected to do?
Regardless of how one feels about the particular policy involved, there's a larger issue at stake here. Thwarting the lawfully and Constitutionally established legislative process in a state with this sort of extra-legal "guerilla" tactic is not what these people were elected to do, and it's completely unacceptable.
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ex-khobar Andy
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Re: A good compromise let the people decide issues

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

I agree, Big R and LJ.

liberty
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Re: A good compromise let the people decide issues

Post by liberty »

Big RR wrote:Lib--how do we "let the people decide" when their representatives don't even show up to debate or vote?

Personally, I have no problem with someone (I'd prefer it a legislative head as opposed to the executive) having the power to compel elected officials to do their job and at least show up for important legislative sessions. Or do you prefer a bunch of petulant jerks holding the legislature hostage (and silencing the only voice the people have in passing legislation) by refusing to do the job they were elected to do?

There are two important points to be made and they are:

One, I refer you to the thirteenth amendment to the US Constitution no one can be forced to do work other than lawfully convicted prisoners and that includes Republican law makers. That applies even if you pay someone in advance like for example a contractor you might hire to remodel your home. The most you can do is sue to regain your money, but you can’t make them do the work.

Two, in a US state unlike the national government all political issues can be decided directly by the people (citizens of that state). Unlike the national government in a state there is no concern about violating the equal representation (protection) of the Senate so all issues can be decided by the people. They can be decided by proposition or in convention or any method where the people vote directly.

The Demorats won’t do it because they are afraid the people will decide against them.
I expected to be placed in an air force combat position such as security police, forward air control, pararescue or E.O.D. I would have liked dog handler. I had heard about the dog Nemo and was highly impressed. “SFB” is sad I didn’t end up in E.O.D.

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Scooter
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Re: A good compromise let the people decide issues

Post by Scooter »

So how were Texas Republicans able to send state police after Democratic legislators who would not attend at the State Capitol?

Why didn't Texas Republicans submit their redistricting proposal to the people in a referendum?

The village idiot will not answer these questions because they run counter to his narrative of Republicans good, Democrats baaaaaaad.
"If you don't have a seat at the table, you're on the menu."

-- Author unknown

Big RR
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Re: A good compromise let the people decide issues

Post by Big RR »

Liberty--13th amendment or no, there are plenty of siruations in which someone can be forced to work or face severe penalties--the military, for example. And in many states certain professionals can be required to provide services for free to keep their license in effect--my state (NJ) requires lawyers to do so, e.g., and will assign cases on a rotating basis to all licensed attorneys. one can also be jailed for failing to report for jury service or refusing to serve. Police and many public employees can be prevented from striking (refusing to work) and they can be jailed for refusing a back to work order; the same has happened a number of times in other areas of critical public services, and the elected representatives are no different.

As for the states permitting the people to decide political issues, that may be the case in some, but certainly not all states. My own state does not permit public initiative and referendum, and I am certain there are many others where this applies. And in our system, there is no effective way to enlist this input in a time effective way, which is one of the reasons we have representatives. If someone objects to being forced to do their job, I would suggest that they resign their position (allowing someone who wants to do the job to take their place) or just not try to get a political office in the first place.

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Crackpot
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Re: A good compromise let the people decide issues

Post by Crackpot »

Not to mention the fact that they are not compelled to keep their job should they not want to perform ther vocation they can and should resign.
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

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Econoline
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Re: A good compromise let the people decide issues

Post by Econoline »

The people DID decide, when they elected their representatives (and their governor, for that matter). I wonder if any of these so-called representatives announced their intentions to avoid doing their jobs when they were campaigning to be elected?
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Lord Jim
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Re: A good compromise let the people decide issues

Post by Lord Jim »

Two, in a US state unlike the national government all political issues can be decided directly by the people (citizens of that state).
That statement doesn't reflect very good knowledge of the reality of how these processes work, lib...

In California, the legislature currently has over 2000 bills up for consideration:
March 5, 2019 11:59 am

Nobody can say California lawmakers haven’t kept busy. Between their December swearing-in and a late-February cutoff, they introduced an average of more than 32 bills a day. Now they face a June deadline to decide which of those 2,628 ideas will advance out of either the Assembly or state Senate.
https://calmatters.org/articles/blog/mo ... coauthors/

Our referendum ballots are quite long enough already thank you, without having over 2000 items to vote on...

Now I'll stipulate that California may be an extreme case, but it's reasonable to assume that for the average state the number of bills that the public would be voting on on an annual basis would run into the hundreds...

(With even less knowledge about what the bills contain than the state legislators have)

Surely you don't think that would make any kind of sense...
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Long Run
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Re: A good compromise let the people decide issues

Post by Long Run »

The states that have a higher than 50% quorum for the conduct of legislative business have had this happen, with (as noted) both parties having a turn at being the one leaving and the other being outraged, without any irony regarding their inconsistency. The now governor Brown approved of her party walking out 20 years ago to deny a quorum, but is now ready to fine and drag the recalcitrant opposition legislators back to the festivities. I guess she changed her mind about the ethics of a minority party using the quorum as legislative leverage. :?

Big RR
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Re: A good compromise let the people decide issues

Post by Big RR »

Perhaps LR, but you think this walking out BS to prevent the legislature from convening a quorum is a good idea, or that the legislators should not be forced back? IMHO, just because Brown is a hypocrite, doesn't mean we should cave to these tactics.

FWIW, as I said before I am not a supporter of having the executive having such authority over members of the legislators, and would prefer that power reside with some head of the legislative body, but I am more than willing to support the governopr's actions here if that's what it takes to get the elected officials to do their jobs. the rest can be sorted out later.

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