Who did you support in the Cold War?

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liberty
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Who did you support in the Cold War?

Post by liberty »

JEFF JACOBY
American leftists were Pol Pot's cheerleaders

By Jeff Jacoby, Globe Columnist | April 30, 1998

The death of Pol Pot, 23 years to the day after he and the Khmer Rouge seized control of Cambodia, occasioned long backward glances at one of the 20th century's most horrific genocides. It was noted everywhere that the communist reign of terror in Cambodia lasted nearly four years and that at least 1 million human beings -- by some estimates as many as 2 1/2 million -- were murdered in an orgy of executions, torture, and starvation.



``In the name of a radical utopia,'' The New York Times recalled in its long obituary, ``the Khmer Rouge regime had turned most of the people into slaves. . . . Dictatorial village leaders and soldiers told the people whom to marry and how to live, and those who disobeyed were killed. [Those] who did not bend to the political mania were buried alive, or tossed into the air and speared on bayonets. Some were fed to crocodiles.'' Nearby was a photograph of human skulls -- emblem of the dreadful ``killing fields'' in which the communists butchered a quarter of Cambodia's people.


But nowhere in the Times story was there a reminder that the Khmer Rouge was able to seize power only after the US Congress in 1975 cut off all aid to the embattled pro-American government of Lon Nol -- and that it did so despite frantic warnings of the bloodbath that would ensue. President Ford warned of ``horror and tragedy'' if Cambodia was abandoned to the Khmer Rouge and pleaded with Congress to supply Lon Nol's army with the tools it needed to defend itself.


To no avail. US troops had come home two years earlier, but American antiwar activists were still intent on effecting the ``liberation'' of Southeast Asia. Radicals like Jane Fonda, David Dellinger, and Tom Hayden stormed the country, denouncing anyone who opposed communist victory in Cambodia and Vietnam. On the campuses, in the media, and in Congress, it was taken on faith that a Khmer Rouge victory would bring peace and enlightened leadership to Cambodia.


``The growing hysteria of the administration's posture on Cambodia,'' declared Senator George McGovern, ``seems to me to reflect a determined refusal to consider what the fall of the existing government in Phnom Penh would actually mean. . . . We should be able to see that the kind of government which would succeed Lon Nol's forces would most likely be a government . . . run by some of the best-educated, most able intellectuals in Cambodia.''



Stanley Karnow, hailed nowadays as an authoritative Indochina historian, was quite sure that ``the `loss' of Cambodia would . . . be the salvation of the Cambodians.'' There was no point helping the noncommunist government survive, he wrote, ``since the rebels are unlikely to kill more innocent civilians than are being slaughtered by the rockets promiscuously hitting Phnom Penh.''


The New Republic told its readers that the ouster of Lon Nol should be of no concern, since ``the Cambodian people will finally be rescued from the horrors of a war that never really had any meaning.''


In Washington, then-Representative Christopher Dodd of Connecticut averred: ``The greatest gift our country can give to the Cambodian people is peace, not guns. And the best way to accomplish that goal is by ending military aid now.''



Was this willful blindness or mere stupidity? To believe that the Khmer Rouge would be good for Cambodia, one had to ignore everything the world had learned about communist brutality since 1917. How could intelligent Americans have said such things?


But they did, repeatedly.


In the news columns of The New York Times, the celebrated Sydney Schanberg wrote of Cambodians that ``it is difficult to imagine how their lives could be anything but better with the Americans gone.'' He dismissed predictions of mass executions in the wake of a Khmer Rouge victory: ``It would be tendentious to forecast such abnormal behavior as national policy under a Communist government once the war is over.'' On April 13, 1975, Schanberg's dispatch from Phnom Penh was headlined, ``Indochina without Americans: for most, a better life.''


On the op-ed page, Anthony Lewis was calling ``the whole bloodbath debate unreal. What future could possibly be more terrible,'' he demanded, ``than the reality of what is happening to Cambodia now?''


As the death marches out of Phnom Penh proceeded, Lewis went on making excuses for the Khmer Rouge. He mused that it was ``the only way to start on their vision of a new society.'' Americans who objected were guilty of ``cultural arrogance, an imperial assumption, that . . . our way of life'' would be better.



Amazing, the lies that were told as Cambodia's holocaust roared on. The ``scholars'' were the worst. Gareth Porter and G.C. Hildebrand of the Indochina Resource Center insisted that Pol Pot's horrendous cruelties ``saved the lives of tens of thousands of people.'' Ben Kiernan, who would eventually head the Cambodian Genocide Program, asserted that ``the Khmer Rouge movement is not the monster that the press have recently made it out to be.'' Tell that to a million murdered Cambodians.



Twenty-three years ago, American leftists cheered, justified, and denied as the communists plunged Cambodia into a nightmare of atrocity. In the end, they failed to whitewash Pol Pot's record. They will not succeed in whitewashing their own.
I expected to be placed in an air force combat position such as security police, forward air control, pararescue or E.O.D. I would have liked dog handler. I had heard about the dog Nemo and was highly impressed. “SFB” is sad I didn’t end up in E.O.D.

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BoSoxGal
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Re: Who did you support in the Cold War?

Post by BoSoxGal »

If that’s all true, then shame on those liberals for making such a terrible mistake of judgment in foreign policy.

But I’m wondering what’s your point in posting this? The news today seems to indicate it is American liberals - and a fair number of conservatives as well - who are calling for us to aid the Kurds rather than surrender them to the evils of Erdogan's regime. Who are calling for us to keep our promises to Ukraine and not let them fall victim to more destruction at the hands of Putin’s regime. Who are calling for us to keep our promises as a member of NATO to all the allies at risk of persecution without our strength at their back.

So I dunno, it seems like maybe the American liberals who fucked up handling Southeast Asia 44 years ago might have learned a thing or two since?
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: Who did you support in the Cold War?

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Well, it's not all "true" - but then, what is?

Ford's early 1975 request for $222 million in supplemental military aid, in addition to what was already approved in December 1974, brought his request up to $497 million. By this time, the Khmer Republic (Lon Nol) controlled only Phnom Penh; the Khmer Rouge were in almost complete control of the country and collapse was inevitable. It is foolish to assert that Lon Nol only fell because of US abandonment.

Lon Nol was a vicious unstable bastard who conducted his own genocides against ethnic Vietnamese in Cambodia.

The far-left activists in the USA were idiots in their utterly wrong view of the saintly revolutionary movement of the KR. But Congress was not wrong to reject the supplemental aid request submitted by Ford.

For a more obvious culpability, consider that the US government viewed the Khmer Rouge as a bulwark against Vietnamese aggression in Asia and argued in its favour when the Vietnamese finally (and justifiably) ousted the KR and ended the horror during which one quarter of Cambodia's population was murdered.
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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Re: Who did you support in the Cold War?

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

As you say, Meade:
Lon Nol was a vicious unstable bastard who conducted his own genocides against ethnic Vietnamese in Cambodia.
I was one of those who thought (maybe hoped would be a better word) that the KR would be an improvement over Lon Nol's government. Certainly they said the right things. I'm more cynical now than I used to be.

Hands up all those who have never put their trust into a political movement and found that it was not all that they hoped it would be. Nearer to home for you, I was an ANC supporter fifty years ago. (I took a magazine called 'Sechaba' for years - 1967 to late seventies IIRC- my grandmother was horrified by the East German stamps on the envelope every month.) That doesn't mean that I think Zuma was a saint. Mugabe of course is another example. I can decry the later Mugabe without wishing that Ian Smith had stayed in charge of N Rhodesia.

liberty
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Re: Who did you support in the Cold War?

Post by liberty »

I want to respond, but I used all my time for today on the other site.
I expected to be placed in an air force combat position such as security police, forward air control, pararescue or E.O.D. I would have liked dog handler. I had heard about the dog Nemo and was highly impressed. “SFB” is sad I didn’t end up in E.O.D.

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Who did you support in the Cold War?

Post by RayThom »

liberty wrote:I want to respond, but I used all my time for today on the other site.
Would it be too much if you'd consider doing this more often? I doubt we'd think less of you for doing so.
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Re: Who did you support in the Cold War?

Post by Burning Petard »

Me, I supported the United Sates of America; but I supported it as a citizen informed with facts, not dogma. My freshman high school civics class was a continuous sermon on the evils of the USSR and Communism. After a bout a month of this stuff, I asked "If communism is so terrible, what are we afraid of? It will collapse all by itself."

The teacher looked like she was gonna die of a heart attack right there. After gasping out some unintelligible noises, she finally put together a meaningless response: "How can you say something like that!' then walked around her desk and began again her emotional rant.

snailgate

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RayThom
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Who did you support in the Cold War?

Post by RayThom »

Burning Petard wrote:... I asked "If communism is so terrible, what are we afraid of? It will collapse all by itself."
snailgate
Res ipsa loquitur.
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liberty
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Re: Who did you support in the Cold War?

Post by liberty »

Even as a young man I could see communism for the evil it still is. Unlike Nazism which is no longer any kind of threat, but a joke, communism is still a danger to freedom. I agree the biggest communist threat China is no longer totalitarian, but it is still enough of a authoritarian force for me to consider it evil. And I could still be wrong about that as far as I know they could still be punishing people for thought crimes. But if they are still totalitarian I can’t see it, but it doesn’t matter life under them would still be unbearable.

As a young man, I knew some liberals; I couldn’t understand their love and admiration for communism. They saw it as a system of sharing were people produced according to their ability and consumed according to their need. Everyone was equal, but as in Animal farm where all the animals were equal some were more equal others. I remember in Animal Farm where Boxer, the horse, was worked to death and public praised for his sacrifice. But behind the scenes this is what happened: “However, the truth is that Napoleon had engineered the sale of Boxer to the knacker, allowing Napoleon and his inner circle to acquire money to buy whisky for themselves. “ That was a good analogy for communists. How could you liberals have ever seen communism as anything other than evil? Reagan was right to call the Soviet Union an evil empire and liberals wrong to condemn him for saying it
I expected to be placed in an air force combat position such as security police, forward air control, pararescue or E.O.D. I would have liked dog handler. I had heard about the dog Nemo and was highly impressed. “SFB” is sad I didn’t end up in E.O.D.

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Re: Who did you support in the Cold War?

Post by Bicycle Bill »

liberty wrote:Even as a young man I could see communism for the evil it still is. Unlike Nazism which is no longer any kind of threat, but a joke, communism is still a danger to freedom.
How could you force a lie like big out of a mind that small?  Pretty much any right-wing group — especially the ones supporting "white power" (Aryan Nation; Proud Boys; or any of the other "brotherhoods" that could be found carrying tiki torches, clubs, and shields with their logos emblazoned on them in Charlottesville) — fit the category of neo-Nazism.  Just because they don't run around screaming "Heil Hitler", singing the "Horst-Wessel-Lied", or running actual extermination camps any more doesn't mean it still isn't out there.
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liberty
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Re: Who did you support in the Cold War?

Post by liberty »

Bicycle Bill wrote:
liberty wrote:Even as a young man I could see communism for the evil it still is. Unlike Nazism which is no longer any kind of threat, but a joke, communism is still a danger to freedom.
How could you force a lie like big out of a mind that small?  Pretty much any right-wing group — especially the ones supporting "white power" (Aryan Nation; Proud Boys; or any of the other "brotherhoods" that could be found carrying tiki torches, clubs, and shields with their logos emblazoned on them in Charlottesville) — fit the category of neo-Nazism.  Just because they don't run around screaming "Heil Hitler", singing the "Horst-Wessel-Lied", or running actual extermination camps any more doesn't mean it still isn't out there.
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Do you really think the NAZIs are a real threat to the freedom of this country? Sure they can kill some people, but so can street gangs; they, street gangs, kill hundreds of people every year in big American liberal cities. How much of a threat to liberty are they? No way do I see an American Nazi party in power in this country. They are no more than a nuisance.

That is the way liberals they always want to fight an enemy that has already been beaten. I think they want to pretend they are brave warriors, but they always burn their draft cards.
I expected to be placed in an air force combat position such as security police, forward air control, pararescue or E.O.D. I would have liked dog handler. I had heard about the dog Nemo and was highly impressed. “SFB” is sad I didn’t end up in E.O.D.

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Re: Who did you support in the Cold War?

Post by Big RR »

they always burn their draft cards.

While conservatives get their daddies to intercede with the draft board, pull strings to get them into the National Guard, or fake problems to avoid thte draft. At least the liberals you talk about are honest in their resistance (and FWIW, I sincerely doubt most draftees during the last war where we had a draft in were conservative as opposed to moderate or liberal, let alone supporters of the war). But no problem, there hasn't been a draft or draft card in this country in nearly 50 years, so the scourge of burning draft cards you refer to over and over again is no longer a problem.

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Re: Who did you support in the Cold War?

Post by Lord Jim »

But no problem, there hasn't been a draft or draft card in this country in nearly 50 years, so the scourge of burning draft cards you refer to over and over again is no longer a problem.
Lib is a big fan of focusing on things that are no longer a problem, never were a problem, are marginal minor problems, or fantasies that never will be a problem...

While he consistently ignores or minimizes the real, current and deadly serious problems coming from the giant gorilla that can be easily seen...(But not by him apparently)


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liberty
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Re: Who did you support in the Cold War?

Post by liberty »

Big RR wrote:
they always burn their draft cards.

While conservatives get their daddies to intercede with the draft board, pull strings to get them into the National Guard, or fake problems to avoid thte draft. At least the liberals you talk about are honest in their resistance (and FWIW, I sincerely doubt most draftees during the last war where we had a draft in were conservative as opposed to moderate or liberal, let alone supporters of the war). But no problem, there hasn't been a draft or draft card in this country in nearly 50 years, so the scourge of burning draft cards you refer to over and over again is no longer a problem.
I am disappointed in you Big; I thought you could recognize a metaphor. Burning draft card is a metaphor for cowardice.
I expected to be placed in an air force combat position such as security police, forward air control, pararescue or E.O.D. I would have liked dog handler. I had heard about the dog Nemo and was highly impressed. “SFB” is sad I didn’t end up in E.O.D.

Big RR
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Re: Who did you support in the Cold War?

Post by Big RR »

So is pulling strings to avoid being put into combat; actally, I think it is more self preservation than cowardice, with someone saying it's not worth risking (or sacrificing) my life for some BS the government has decided to do. And those who opnely defied entering into the fray (rather than hiding behind their daddy's and their money's pull, were much more honest about their position IMHO. It's not a liberal/conservative split--the freedom riders endured great risks for something they thought was worth fighting for.

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Re: Who did you support in the Cold War?

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

"I earned my spurs on the battlefield; Donald Trump earned his spurs from the doctor”
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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Re: Who did you support in the Cold War?

Post by Lord Jim »

Burning draft card is a metaphor for cowardice.
How about getting multiple deferments for "bone spurs"? (Which seem to have magically disappeared...)

Where does that rank on your "Cowardice Scale" Lib?

Seems to me that's not a " metaphor for cowardice"...

It's a very clear-cut straight up act of genuine cowardice...
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