Our leniency is absurd.

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Big RR
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Re: Our leniency is absurd.

Post by Big RR »

OK, but then why not use a real one? Any self respecting serious terrorist would be able to get or make one.

And FWIW, would most people even be able to recognize a suicide vest on sight so they would be filled with fear? From pictiures i have seen they just look like bulky vests; indeed, isn't that how people wearing them can get into busy places without detection.

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RayThom
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Our leniency is absurd.

Post by RayThom »

Suicide Vest: Or a reasonably facsimile thereof.

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Gob
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Re: Our leniency is absurd.

Post by Gob »

Big RR wrote:OK, but then why not use a real one? Any self respecting serious terrorist would be able to get or make one.
Ask him. Oh, wait.....
Big RR wrote:And FWIW, would most people even be able to recognize a suicide vest on sight so they would be filled with fear? From pictiures i have seen they just look like bulky vests; indeed, isn't that how people wearing them can get into busy places without detection.
The police thought it realistic enough to shoot him. Don't forget, these are Pommy cops, not American.
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Bicycle Bill
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Re: Our leniency is absurd.

Post by Bicycle Bill »

Let me see if I've got this straight.  Crazy bloke stabs several people (two fatally), is subdued by bystanders and bobbies on scene, PCs see he is wearing a suicide vest (which turned out to be fake, but who knew at the time?), and shoot him dead.

I'm Robin Hood with that.
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Big RR
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Re: Our leniency is absurd.

Post by Big RR »

Assuming they thought the vest was real; if he was, indeed, subdued, he posed no danger since he could not set the vest off. If he already set it off (maybe on a timer), shooting and killing him would make no difference. So why shoot him?

Now if he was not subdued, the shooting may well have been justified as they could believe it was a real vest that he could set off.

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Re: Our leniency is absurd.

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

I'm by no means a fan of execution on site/sight; but in this case the cops saw a suicide vest and they had no means of seeing if it was real or fake, and as far as they knew he was not subdued enough to make 100% certain that he could not set it off. Even if his hands were tied he could perhaps set it off with some other action.

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Scooter
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Re: Our leniency is absurd.

Post by Scooter »

Without more compelling info I'm not prepared to condemn the cops for shooting him. Nor am I prepared to accept this incident as a condemnation of the British penal/parole system, particularly as parolees were also involved in mitigating the threat posed by the attacker.
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Joe Guy
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Re: Our leniency is absurd.

Post by Joe Guy »

It seems normal to me for police to shoot someone who has a knife and just killed two people but I wonder about shooting someone who is suspected of wearing a 'suicide vest'. If it were real, wouldn't it explode? Weren't there people nearby him? Including the cops?

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Re: Our leniency is absurd.

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

Any system which does not execute all murderers and wannabe murderers will run the risk of making a mistake. It seems that the same justice system which (with hindsight, wrongly) released this man also set free another murderer who was sufficiently rehabilitated to show considerable courage in restraining and helping to subdue him. Human judgments, even if they are 99% right, will be 100% wrong to that victim of the rare error. It's something I used to point out to my customer service guys: we could have an enviable 99% on time record, but as far as that 1 in 100 customer was concerned, we were 100% late.

If you want to see an example of a really screwed up system, we now see here in the US George Zimmerman suing the Trayvon Martin family for $100 million. In my view, Zimmerman was fucking lucky to get away with murdering Martin. Somehow, and remember the jury have to be convinced beyond a reasonable doubt, the jury entertained the idea that there was a tiny chance (5%??) that Zimmerman's explanation - he was minding his own business when Martin jumped him - was the real one. Of course because they believed that this explanation was minimally plausible, he was found not guilty. Maybe that was justice: the adversarial 'innocent until proven guilty' system is the best we have so really there's no maybe there - but the corollary became that Martin was now the aggressor and right wing radio was all over it. The narrative became that poor George (why can I hear Ann Richards' voice?) was set upon by the uncontrolled thug Martin for no reason (despite being 50 pounds outweighed) and was lucky to survive.

In a UK court, if he were to bring that lawsuit and if he were to lose, legal costs for the Marin family would be awarded against him.

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Econoline
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Re: Our leniency is absurd.

Post by Econoline »

ex-khobar Andy wrote:Any system which does not execute all murderers and wannabe murderers will run the risk of making a mistake.
Likewise, any system which DOES execute all murderers and wannabe murderers will run the risk of making a mistake.
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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: Our leniency is absurd.

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Khan was shot dead by officers after members of the public restrained him.
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Big RR
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Re: Our leniency is absurd.

Post by Big RR »

Don't post a photo, tell us how you really feel.

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