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eddieq
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I see you

Post by eddieq »

Perhaps this belongs in politics, but...

July 14 is not only Bastille Day, but it's International Non-Binary Visibility Day.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internati ... le%27s_Day

You can celebrate by treating non-binary individuals as humans deserving of the respect you would give any other person. Sounds trite but apparently it's difficult for many.

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Guinevere
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Re: I see you

Post by Guinevere »

Cool. My godson is non-binary - trying to get used to referring to them as they. My brain still processes that as plural.
“I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.” ~ Ruth Bader Ginsburg, paraphrasing Sarah Moore Grimké

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eddieq
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Re: I see you

Post by eddieq »

Guinevere wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:41 pm
Cool. My godson is non-binary - trying to get used to referring to them as they. My brain still processes that as plural.
That seems to be a common theme. I struggled at first, but with people that I know, their pronouns flow.

Unsolicited advice - if you use the wrong pronouns and are corrected (or notice you did it wrong), just correct yourself and move on. Don't start apologizing/making a big deal out of it/etc. I'm told that "puts it on them" when we do that.

Anyway, happy nonbinary day to your Godson!

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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: I see you

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

I mean no offense but it seems to me that the world, or part of it, has gone insane.

Gender is a matter of fact, not "feelings".

'Them' and 'they' = plural and not singular.

"It" is gender neutral but presumably felt to be offensive.

"Godson" is an acknowledgement of gender.

I believe that words matter and kowtowing to pressure from fringe groups in changing language is ridiculous.

Just love people, eh? We surely don't all have to virtue-signal all the time by accepting whatever nonsense is doled out to us.
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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eddieq
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Re: I see you

Post by eddieq »

MGM, the argument made by non-binary and gender non-conforming folks is that "sex" is the biology/genetics (XX, XY). Gender is a social construct. Those that feel they don't conform to the "assigned gender at birth" choose to identify differently and often prefer these "traditionally plural" pronouns as they are non-gender-specific.

They/Them/Their, though, doesn't always indicate plurality. It's often used when something is non-specific. According to a wikipedia article, "They" used in the singular form dates back hundreds of years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they

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Guinevere
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Re: I see you

Post by Guinevere »

Just loving people includes being respectful of how they want to be identified and referred to.

It’s as simple as what Sue once said about gender harassment in the workplace - don’t be an asshole. I’ll add, don’t presume you know better than someone else about that person.
“I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.” ~ Ruth Bader Ginsburg, paraphrasing Sarah Moore Grimké

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BoSoxGal
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Re: I see you

Post by BoSoxGal »

MajGenl.Meade wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:59 pm
I mean no offense but it seems to me that the world, or part of it, has gone insane.

Gender is a matter of fact, not "feelings".

'Them' and 'they' = plural and not singular.

"It" is gender neutral but presumably felt to be offensive.

"Godson" is an acknowledgement of gender.

I believe that words matter and kowtowing to pressure from fringe groups in changing language is ridiculous.

Just love people, eh? We surely don't all have to virtue-signal all the time by accepting whatever nonsense is doled out to us.
You know, it basically makes you an asshole to laugh off the feelings of people in the minority struggling in a toxic social construct who just ask a small thing - call them the name they wish and the pronouns they wish.

A real Christian, who really believes in loving people, would put his fucking arrogance aside and show his love by acknowledging, accepting and acquiescing to these very modest parameters. It does you no harm. Refusal is the sign of a hostile prick.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: I see you

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Yeah, I see that I was laughing a lot. Wasn't. No, I won't call anyone what "they wish". I'll call 'em what they are. Fellow humans, lovely folks. But not "them" or "they". I'll just use the person's name. How about that?

The world isn't what you tell me it must be.
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

Big RR
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Re: I see you

Post by Big RR »

Meade--
just love people, eh? We surely don't all have to virtue-signal all the time by accepting whatever nonsense is doled out to us.
What nonsense is that? That gender is determined solely by physical characteristics? That one must have a penis to be male and a vagina to be female? What about people born with both? Or neither? And why should someone's inmost "feelings" as to their gender identity be subordinated to their physical genitalia (if they even have any)? Why is it wrong to call people what they choose? This is not virtue signalling, this is just being loving. there's far too much condemnation going on in this world, why not try to be inclusive of all people? BSG is right, it does you no harm, and it could mean the world to someone who is struggling. Love is not always easy, but it is always the best way.

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BoSoxGal
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Re: I see you

Post by BoSoxGal »

eddieq wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:30 pm
MGM, the argument made by non-binary and gender non-conforming folks is that "sex" is the biology/genetics (XX, XY). Gender is a social construct. Those that feel they don't conform to the "assigned gender at birth" choose to identify differently and often prefer these "traditionally plural" pronouns as they are non-gender-specific.

They/Them/Their, though, doesn't always indicate plurality. It's often used when something is non-specific. According to a wikipedia article, "They" used in the singular form dates back hundreds of years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they
Also Meade, did you overlook this post by eddieq entirely? He’s provided you with a link that explains that as a matter of fact, the singular they/them/their has been proper English usage for 600 years already - before the plural they, even. So you’ve got no pedantic leg to stand on.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

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Guinevere
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Re: I see you

Post by Guinevere »

MajGenl.Meade wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:30 pm
Yeah, I see that I was laughing a lot. Wasn't. No, I won't call anyone what "they wish". I'll call 'em what they are. Fellow humans, lovely folks. But not "them" or "they". I'll just use the person's name. How about that?

The world isn't what you tell me it must be.
You’re totally missing my point and the concept of respect. No one said “the world” has to be a certain way.

And how does it hurt you to speak of someone in the way they want to be recognized? If I decided I wanted to be called Kate instead of Guin, you’d call me Kate. Or Arthur, if I asked. Right? You don’t get to decide how I identify or dictate how a I want to be recognized. But if you want to treat the world with love, and respect, you will do it for individuals who ask.
“I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.” ~ Ruth Bader Ginsburg, paraphrasing Sarah Moore Grimké

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Joe Guy
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Re: I see you

Post by Joe Guy »

MajGenl.Meade wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:59 pm
......We surely don't all have to virtue-signal all the time by accepting whatever nonsense is doled out to us.
Dammit, Meade! Why ain't you woke like me and everyone else on the internet? I've been woke ever since I realized that everybody's feelings get hurt all the time and it's time for everyone over 60 to apologize to everybody they meet and have met in the past.

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dales
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Re: I see you

Post by dales »

WHITE HETEROSEXUAL MEN OF THE WORLD, YOU'RE ON NOTICE!

Your collective inability to acknowledge this obvious truth makes you all look like fools.


yrs,
rubato

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Guinevere
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Re: I see you

Post by Guinevere »

dales wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:45 pm
WHITE HETEROSEXUAL MEN OF THE WORLD, YOU'RE ON NOTICE!
Why does this bother you? No one is suggesting that anyone speak to or regard you differently. Or heterosexual white men, in general.
“I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.” ~ Ruth Bader Ginsburg, paraphrasing Sarah Moore Grimké

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Joe Guy
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Re: I see you

Post by Joe Guy »

I don't know about Dale but I believe all of the social justice warriors blame everything on white males - or as they like to say, "Boomers" - for most of the problems this country is now experiencing. They think we all had it easy growing up and owe this and future generations a sensitive and happy world.

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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: I see you

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

I made no mention of naughty bits. Gender is determined by XY and XX. Gender roles on the other hand, are societal.

The singular use of "they" etc. is useful in cases where a specific person is not identified. Such as "when a child plays, they . . . ." which avoids the awkward "he or she". But "When my child plays, they..." is offensive to me. I decide what I don't like. It's all the rage, apparently.

The very use by Guin of "godson" indicates a boy child. One could use "godchild" without difficulty. I refuse to acknowledge that words like "father" refer to a woman or "mother" to a man; nor will I ditch "son", "daughter", "nephew", "niece" and so on. My son and my daughter will always be he and she to me, no matter what "feeling" (or politically inspired statement) they make. Now, if one should have sexual reassignment then I'd change my term.

I'm not likely to be called upon to refer to a person under the delusion that "binary" means they have both XX and XY genes as "they". So y'all can relax. If I were a carpenter . . . sorry, drive-by lyric . . .

If I were put in the situation, I will (I repeat) use the person's name, rather than "they". Or I might say, "That person would like a coffee" - or I might even be lazy and say, "They'll have a coffee" because the person I'm saying it to is probably not as tight-assed as me. We can love people without conforming to their demands for change and we can also change without conforming to a single prescribed solution.

As I wrote in the first place, "just love 'em, eh"? What's wrong with that?
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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Gob
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Re: I see you

Post by Gob »

I'm happy to call people what they want to be called, but i will not refer to an individual as "they", that's pure nonsense and just wrong.
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

ex-khobar Andy
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Re: I see you

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

My daughter has at least one friend who, for whatever reason, prefers the pronoun 'they.' Obviously like everyone else here I was brought up with 'they' (etc.) being a plural pronoun: even its occasional use as a substitute for 'he or she' when discussing a theoretical child for whom gender is unknown or irrelevant to the sentence, seems clumsy.

I would always prefer 'When a child is playing in the street he or she must pay attention to the traffic' over 'When a child is playing in the street they must pay attention to the traffic' or, if I had time, I would recast the sentence to avoid it: 'A child playing in the street must pay attention to the traffic.'

Seems to me that if 'Stacy' prefers to be 'they' (etc.) it's no skin off my nose and there are far more important things in the world to get upset about. So I have zero problem with it.

I recall when same sex marriage was first an issue, there were those who felt, and said, that somehow their (conventional) marriages would be devalued. My response was - how do you work that one out? I prefer to be known as 'he' - it's been sufficient all my life and I see no reason to change now. If someone wants to be a 'they,' they have that freedom. Same with my marriage: I am perfectly happy and how others behave within their unions does not affect mine.

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Gob
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Re: I see you

Post by Gob »

ex-khobar Andy wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:24 am


Seems to me that if 'Stacy' prefers to be 'they' (etc.) it's no skin off my nose and there are far more important things in the world to get upset about. So I have zero problem with it.

No skin off mine either, but what if she wanted to be called "StinkylemonpootlefartfaceyingtongyiddleIpo", do we give her equal respect because she's decided she's half rice half chips?

ETA:
Last month, Mienna Jones got new chairs and tables for her childminding business. But while her charges were pleased with their new equipment, it was the cardboard packaging that obsessed her nine-year-old son Dexter.

Image

‘I’m not allowed to touch the boxes,’ she says. ‘When I tried to recycle one, he screamed that I’d ruined his life and refused to come out of his room all day. He gets very fixated on things,’ 46-year-old Mienna says wearily. ‘And at the moment his fixation is cardboard boxes.’

As well as fixating on objects, Dexter has also always taken words at face value.

‘If I say, “Goodness, it’s raining cats and dogs,” he’ll say, “Mum, there are no cats and dogs coming from the sky,”’ explains Mienna, who lives in St Albans, Herts. ‘You have to be careful how you word things because he takes it literally, and perseveres with the idea.’

There are sensory issues, too. Just the smell of his mother bringing a cup of coffee into the room is enough to make him retch.

Already these observations will be ringing familiar, worrying bells with parents of children with autism. Along with anxiety and insomnia — which Mienna can also tick on her son’s list — Dexter sounds like a textbook case.

Those diagnosed can access extra support that can help mitigate their symptoms, especially at school — but two and a half years since Dexter was put on a waiting list for an assessment, Mienna is no closer to knowing for sure.

‘I’ve said we’d jump if we were put on a cancellation list but there’s been nothing,’ she says. ‘It’s been devastating. I feel we’ve been failed by the system.’

So far so familiar. Woefully long waiting lists are a common lament among autistic children’s families, and it’s something that the National Autism Society has been highlighting for years.

But in one area of Dexter’s care there have been no delays whatsoever. In the specialist field of gender identity he has received a swift and efficient service.

For, although you could never tell from his photo, Dexter was born a girl, called Talia. At age two, he became convinced he was a boy; at five, he started living as one.

With the backing of his parents — Mienna is married to Dexter’s father, Ollie, 57, a painter — his GP and teachers, he was referred, aged six, to London’s Tavistock Centre, an NHS clinic for transgender children, where after waiting just eight months, he was diagnosed with gender dysphoria — a condition in which sufferers experience distress at their biological sex.

He became one of the youngest children ever to be diagnosed, and has since received sessions every month or two — via Zoom, during lockdown — with a psychologist at the NHS’s flagship Gender Identity Development Service.

His name already changed by deed poll, should Dexter continue to identify as a boy, he could soon be given hormone blockers to delay the onset of puberty, paving the way for him to biologically transition to a man.

But while professionals in this increasingly contentious arena have been keeping a watchful eye on Dexter, his mother believes his other behavioural needs have been all but ignored.

Which is troubling given the long-established link between transgender children and autism: children with autism are believed to be four times as likely to be diagnosed with gender dysphoria.

In 2018, a report compiled by Tavistock’s former governor David Bell revealed its own staff were worried children were taking up a ‘trans identity as a solution’ to various problems, including ‘a very significant incidence of autism spectrum disorder’.

Child psychologist Dr Kenneth Zucker has said the autistic trait of ‘fixating’ on subjects could convince children they were the wrong sex: ‘It’s possible that kids who have a tendency to get obsessed or fixated on something may latch on to gender,’ he said.

Meanwhile, autism expert and clinical psychologist Dr Sally Powis has said that, while there are undoubtedly cases of autistic teenagers with genuine gender dysphoria, if ‘you know you’ve been different since you were a small child, there’s the possibility you consider it’s your gender that’s the issue, rather than autism.’

More girls now want to transition than boys, but Dr Powis said teenage girls on the autistic spectrum who bind their breasts might simply be trying to express the feeling that ‘I’m anxious about all this stuff happening to my body and I don’t know how to handle it’.

So, given that Dexter recently told Mienna he might not be a boy after all, does she think this could be the case with her son? Could he actually be a very disturbed little girl called Talia, who’s not getting the right treatment she desperately needs?

As Dexter inches ever closer to puberty, should both possibilities not be urgently explored? And if he does decide to become a girl again, what impact will the last five years have had?

A loving mother, Mienna pauses before responding, knowing better than most that there are no easy answers on the increasingly polarised subject of transgenderism.

‘People have said to me, “If you think he’s autistic, could gender be another obsession?” I don’t know, because I’m not in his head and not qualified to make those links,’ she says.

‘He expressed such a strong desire to be a boy from the age of two. I don’t know if that is autism or genuinely gender dysphoria.’

She recalls the first time Dexter professed doubts about being a boy, in early 2019. ‘He was very distressed. He said he felt he wanted to be a girl but was embarrassed.

‘He said, “The problem is I’m older now and everyone will ask questions. It’s not the same as when I went from Talia to Dexter, because I was little,”’ says Mienna. ‘I was heartbroken. My biggest fear is that having said he’s Dexter, he feels trapped in this situation.

‘I told him I’d love and support him whatever and make the ride as smooth as possible, but it’s going to be bumpy, isn’t it?’

Indeed it is. I first spoke to Mienna three years ago, shortly after Dexter had been referred to the Tavistock. A delightful child who dreamed of running in the Olympics, my overriding impression was of a little boy finally comfortable in his own skin.

Today — half a foot taller but still boyish — he shows off the rainbow coloured face mask he wears to protect him from coronavirus and tells me he’s enjoyed jumping on his trampoline during lockdown.

But his friendly demeanour belies an inner torment that seems to have escalated since we first met.

Meanwhile, the transgender movement has been gathering pace. Demand at the Tavistock Centre, the only NHS clinic of its kind, has soared by 3,000 per cent in the past decade. In 2009, just 97 children aged from three to 18 were referred. In 2018/19 there were 2,590 referrals — 1,740 girls and 624 boys.

Ironically, Mienna stresses that it was at the Tavistock where it was first flagged up that Dexter might have autism. ‘Tavistock staff have always felt there was something else going on with Dexter that needs to be identified to understand what’s going on from a gender point of view,’ she says.

They referred Dexter to Hertfordshire CAMHS (Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services) in the summer of 2017 for a ‘Tier 3 Assessment’ to explore his anxiety. Tier 3 is the second most severe on a grading scale of treatment in which Tier 1 signifies a child needing support at school and Tier 4 requires inpatient provision.

CAMHS claimed Dexter was only Tier 1 — meaning support through school, which Dexter was already receiving, was warranted.

Mienna eventually persuaded CAMHS to treat Dexter as a Tier 2 patient, which involved an appointment with an educational psychologist with one of CAMHS’s partner organisations.

‘After 45 minutes, I realised I had to point out that my child was born a female. When she looked back at her notes, I asked “Surely this should be at the top? Isn’t this information you should know?”

‘She said something to the effect that my son was a “hot potato”, with so many emotional needs nobody knows where to start. I broke down in tears and said, “Please, could somebody just start somewhere?”’

At Tavistock’s request, Dexter’s GP had put him on a waiting list to see a community paediatrician for a preliminary appointment to see if he could be assessed for autism. The 90-minute appointment took place five months later, in December 2017, at a children’s centre in St Albans.
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: I see you

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

ex-khobar Andy wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:24 am
Seems to me that if 'Stacy' prefers to be 'they' (etc.) it's no skin off my nose
I agree; Stacy can do as he or she wishes. But I won't use "they" and Stacy can like it or lump it. His or her choice.
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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