The Uninhabitable Earth

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BoSoxGal
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Re: The Uninhabitable Earth

Post by BoSoxGal »

liberty wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 2:00 pm
Would anyone here be willing to give up jet air travel to reduce CO2 emissions? How can you expect something to happen if you are not willing to do something?
I haven’t flown since 2015 and have no plans to fly again anytime in the near future. Before I die I would like to go on a hiking tour of Scotland Ireland and Wales, and I would happily take passage on a ship to get there if it was an option - otherwise I’ll fly one more time before I die.

My carbon footprint is likely a fair bit smaller than most, but I do keep a dog companion and that is certainly a luxury that uses a lot of resources. I also have to use the AC a fair bit of the time in summer now, because the heat index is just too much for me a great many days. Other than when I lived in Arizona, I’ve never been one to use the AC much if at all - we didn’t have it when I was growing up here in eastern Mass, except a bowl of ice placed in front of the box fan - as I much prefer open windows, fresh air and birdsong to being shut up inside with artificial air. One of the things I am saddest about is how climate change has made so much of summer something to be endured rather than enjoyed.

We need massive change in many areas to effectively address emissions and the climate crisis. First we need to discard wholesale the notion that we can have economic growth everlasting. We need to revamp our world to foster SUSTAINABILITY, and that will require a very different mindset from our present one of CONSUME and WASTE. It would mean huge lifestyle changes for billions of people living in developed nations enjoying a standard of living that obscenely abuses the natural world.

So I don’t believe we will do what is necessary to halt emissions and hold the climate crisis to the already present levels of catastrophic weather events and ongoing mass extinction of flora and fauna. Because I’m writing this post as I sit watching the petty games of people unfolding in the US Congress today and I know that human beings don’t have the capacity to engage in the wide scale change and self denial and discipline and COOPERATION that would be required to get us there as soon as is necessary.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
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ex-khobar Andy
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Re: The Uninhabitable Earth

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

Gob wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 1:23 pm
ex-khobar Andy wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 1:08 pm

No. I don't recall any consensus among scientists that acid rain would make the planet uninhabitable within a few years.
But you do remember that acid rain was going to be a major polluter and source of deforestation, exceptionally dangerous to human life right? Er, yes but that wasn't what you said.

For instance;
The most comprehensive study was commissioned in 1980 by US president Jimmy Carter. The National Acid Precipitation Assessment Programme (NAPAP) examined the damage caused by acid rain and recommended solutions. In 1982 president Ronald Regan raised the annual budget for NAPAP to $100 million. The final cost of NAPAP, the most costly environmental study in US history, was $537 million.
So, obviously it was taken seriously as a problem. Again yes - and there was the willingness (albeit sometimes strained) to do something about it. It was relatively easy to make the case that reasonable engineering controls - scrubbers and the like - would pay for themselves in due course and it wasn't nearly as politicized as climate change has been.

It's my belief that, through the efforts of scientists and government, that we will one day control, then reduce global warming. I just hope we do it in time. I share that hope. But as long as there are TFIs like Trump and the rest of the fossil fuel community - and Trump is by no means the initiator or the worst offender but the loudest voice - the $$$ and commitment will never come. It may already be too late.

Big RR
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Re: The Uninhabitable Earth

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bsg--I don't think ships have less of a carbon footprint than jets; I recall reading a while back (not sure where, but I will try to find it later if I get a chance) that ships emit something like 5 times the carbon dioxide per passenger mile than jets; adding to this that jets can usually take a much shorter route, and it would appear traveling to Scotland via jet would be more responsible from a carbon footprint perspective.

liberty
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Re: The Uninhabitable Earth

Post by liberty »

Big RR wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:25 pm
bsg--I don't think ships have less of a carbon footprint than jets; I recall reading a while back (not sure where, but I will try to find it later if I get a chance) that ships emit something like 5 times the carbon dioxide per passenger mile than jets; adding to this that jets can usually take a much shorter route, and it would appear traveling to Scotland via jet would be more responsible from a carbon footprint perspective.
Big, the amount of carbon produced by a ship would depend on the type of ship. A solar-powered ship such as a wind sail would emit a lot less carbon than a diesel-powered ship. Of course, they would be slower, but you don't get something for nothing.

I think they would be faster than a 1900 century clipper ship. And don't be stupid; you wouldn't build modern sailing ships out of wood.
I expected to be placed in an air force combat position such as security police, forward air control, pararescue or E.O.D. I would have liked dog handler. I had heard about the dog Nemo and was highly impressed. “SFB” is sad I didn’t end up in E.O.D.

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Re: The Uninhabitable Earth

Post by Big RR »

Perhaps we could deploy wind sail ships again--even solar (or even nuclear) powered ships, but we don't have them now. I'm only responding based on what I've read.

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Econoline
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Re: The Uninhabitable Earth

Post by Econoline »

I would LOVE to travel across the Atlantic on this ship:


According to this she was supposed to be in Cornwall this month. Did she sail anywhere near you, Gob?
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Re: The Uninhabitable Earth

Post by Bicycle Bill »

BoSoxGal wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:15 pm
liberty wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 2:00 pm
Would anyone here be willing to give up jet air travel to reduce CO2 emissions? How can you expect something to happen if you are not willing to do something?
I haven’t flown since 2015 and have no plans to fly again anytime in the near future. Before I die I would like to go on a hiking tour of Scotland Ireland and Wales, and I would happily take passage on a ship to get there if it was an option - otherwise I’ll fly one more time before I die.
I can top that ... haven't been in an airplane since July 2001, and I've let myself be packed into an aluminum tube and carried from one place to another commercially three, maybe four times in my entire life.  Don't know if I'd want to even be caught dead on one of those floating high-rise/shopping mall/amusement park combinations that are considered cruise ships these days, though.

While there are a few places in Europe I'd like to see, there's a lot more here in America that I'd like to visit.  The last I heard, Amtrak was still running, so maybe a train trip with a side rental of E-cars or hybrids for places that the choo-choo doesn't get to is in my future.

And, of course, there's still the personal automobile.  Even my current vehicle, a 2006 Town & Country minivan, gets more miles per gallon than 'Christine' — the 1969 Plymouth Fury that was my first car — ever did (and yeah, I know the 'REAL' Christine was a '58, not a '69 ... work with me here, OK?), and I really WOULD like to try to rediscover those parts of the Lincoln Highway and Route 66 that still exist... not to mention driving at least a part of the spectacular PCH before it finally slides off into the ocean.
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Gob
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Re: The Uninhabitable Earth

Post by Gob »

We're planning on having a joint UK/Australia lifestyle in the future, especially when we become grandparents. I don't think a tall ship is going to cut it for us.
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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Re: The Uninhabitable Earth

Post by Jarlaxle »

That's about when I figure on checking out.

Big RR
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Re: The Uninhabitable Earth

Post by Big RR »

based on the longevity of both parents' families, I doubt I'd make it much beyond that.

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Re: The Uninhabitable Earth

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

BoSoxGal wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:58 pm
Anyone planning to still be here in 20 years?
Yes but I'm not planning on being aware that I am.

More facetiousness, yes.
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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Joe Guy
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Re: The Uninhabitable Earth

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BoSoxGal wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:58 pm
Anyone planning to still be here in 20 years?
If Gob keeps Plan B online that long, I'll be here.

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Econoline
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Re: The Uninhabitable Earth

Post by Econoline »

As I said before, I'll be 75 in November. My mother didn't die until she was 95, but her last 2 years were miserable. After watching what she went through, I'm planning on being prepared to check out early if by some odd chance I get anywhere near that point.
People who are wrong are just as sure they're right as people who are right. The only difference is, they're wrong.
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rubato
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Re: The Uninhabitable Earth

Post by rubato »

Big RR wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:25 pm
bsg--I don't think ships have less of a carbon footprint than jets; I recall reading a while back (not sure where, but I will try to find it later if I get a chance) that ships emit something like 5 times the carbon dioxide per passenger mile than jets; adding to this that jets can usually take a much shorter route, and it would appear traveling to Scotland via jet would be more responsible from a carbon footprint perspective.
Ships outside territorial waters are allowed to use "bunker oil " which is much more polluting. diesel oil burning power plants are much more polluting that jets, which use kerosine.

I have no intentions of changing my travel plans. As time passes we will change the economics of air travel and the technology to effect the changes we must.

yrs,
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Re: The Uninhabitable Earth

Post by rubato »

When facing a new "crisis" many people forget the challenges we have already faced and conquered. Compared to the great depression, the rise of fascism and WWII three-in-one ills global warming is not that great.

Saying life will be different is trivial. With or without global warming life will not be the same. Economic changes, technological changes, cultural changes will drive the standards of modern life into new areas. We (and much of the first world) have been suffering because we don't know how to cope with excess wealth. With having too much.

Global warming does not worry me as much as the attack on truth and the attack on science and reason. That is a disease which can kill us. Kill us quick.

yrs,
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Re: The Uninhabitable Earth

Post by rubato »

We are where we are today in large part due to Rachel Carson, for whom my alma mater was named a few years ago. She really began the environmental movement in the '60s in the US with the publication of "Silent Spring" which later spread to much of the first world. We have aschieved a lot since then. Many species have been brought back from the brink of extinction like Brown Pelicans, Peregrine falcons, Eagles, Sea Otters, Wolves, &C. many rivers which were hopelessly toxic have been restored and the Cuyahoga river does not still catch fire. The killing pollution of the London Fogs and Los Angeles Smogs have been tamed. In the 1960s the San Gabriel mountains would disappear in the smog to air which made your lungs hurt. By the 199os ( when lived there again) there was lass pollution with more than 2x as many cars. This is all just one aspect of life on earth and we, and our descendants, will have to learn and adapt as we go.

But I am Kantian and Kant says that optimism is a moral duty. So there.

yrs,
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Gob
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Re: The Uninhabitable Earth

Post by Gob »

rubato wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 4:17 am
When facing a new "crisis" many people forget the challenges we have already faced and conquered. Compared to the great depression, the rise of fascism and WWII three-in-one ills global warming is not that great.

Pretty much what I was saying in my "acid rain" comment.
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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BoSoxGal
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Re: The Uninhabitable Earth

Post by BoSoxGal »

Gob wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 7:58 am
rubato wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 4:17 am
When facing a new "crisis" many people forget the challenges we have already faced and conquered. Compared to the great depression, the rise of fascism and WWII three-in-one ills global warming is not that great.

Pretty much what I was saying in my "acid rain" comment.
Both comments belie an ignorance of the science behind the climate crisis, something posing species destruction and possible extinction so at a scale far surpassing either analogy.

Calling the global warming induced climate crisis not as great a threat as those that faced humankind in the first half of the 20th century is really arrogant and ignorant at the same time. The climate crisis promises devastation on the scale of global nuclear Holocaust - something actually far worse than had the planet fallen to the third Reich.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

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Gob
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Re: The Uninhabitable Earth

Post by Gob »

“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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Econoline
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Re: The Uninhabitable Earth

Post by Econoline »

BoSoxGal wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:38 am
Calling the global warming induced climate crisis not as great a threat as those that faced humankind in the first half of the 20th century is really arrogant and ignorant at the same time.
That's why I compared it to the 14th century instead—and pointed out that we now have way more in the way of scientific knowledge and technological tools that we can use to cope with the crises.
People who are wrong are just as sure they're right as people who are right. The only difference is, they're wrong.
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