I Wonder if Meade is Okay With This....

[Joe Guy]

Gen. Lee statue can be removed, Virginia Supreme Court rules

RICHMOND, Va. (AP) — Virginia’s Supreme Court ruled unanimously on Thursday that the state can remove an iconic statue of Confederate Gen. Robert E. Lee from a prominent spot in its capital city, saying “values change and public policy changes too” in a democracy.

The 7-0 decision cited testimony from historians that the enormous statue was erected in 1890 to honor the southern white citizenry’s defense of a pre-Civil War life that depended on slavery and the subjugation of Black people.

More than a century later, its continued display “communicates principles that many believe to be inconsistent with the values the Commonwealth currently wishes to express," the justices said.

The high court’s decision came in two lawsuits filed by Virginia residents who attempted to block Gov. Ralph Northam's order to remove the bronze equestrian sculpture, which shows Lee in military attire atop a massive stone pedestal.

Virginia promised to forever maintain the statue in the 1887 and 1890 deeds that transferred its ownership to the state. But the justices said that obligation no longer applies.

“Those restrictive covenants are unenforceable as contrary to public policy and for being unreasonable because their effect is to compel government speech, by forcing the Commonwealth to express, in perpetuity, a message with which it now disagrees,” the justices wrote.

Northam announced his decision in June 2020, 10 days after George Floyd’s death under the knee of a Minneapolis police officer sparked protests over police brutality and racism in cities across the country, including Richmond. The nationally recognized statue became the epicenter of a protest movement in Virginia after Floyd’s death and its base is now covered with graffiti.

Separate lawsuits were filed by a group of residents who own property near the statue and William Gregory, a descendant of signatories to the 1890 deed that transferred the statue, pedestal and land they sit on to the state.

Gregory argued that the state agreed to “faithfully guard” and “affectionately protect” the statue. And five property owners argued that the governor is bound by a 1889 joint resolution of the Virginia General Assembly that accepted the statue and agreed to maintain it as a monument to Lee.

Plaintiffs' attorneys told the justices during a June 8 hearing that the governor exceeded his authority under the Virginia Constitution. Attorney General Mark Herring’s office countered that a small group of private citizens cannot force the state to maintain a monument that no longer reflects its values.

The high court sided with the governor, citing testimony from historians who said the statue was erected as a monument to the Confederacy's “Lost Cause,” and is now widely seen as a symbol of racial injustice.

“The essence of our republican form of government is for the sovereign people to elect representatives, who then chart the public policy of the Commonwealth or of the Nation. Democracy is inherently dynamic. Values change and public policy changes too. The Government of the Commonwealth is entitled to select the views that it supports and the values that it wants to express," Justice S. Bernard Goodwyn wrote.

Virginia Democrats cheered the court's ruling. Northam's statement called it “a tremendous win for the people of Virginia.”

“For far too long, the Lee statue stood tall in our capital and represented nothing but division and white supremacy -- but it is finally coming down,” tweeted state Sen. Louise Lucas, one of the state’s most powerful Black lawmakers.

Patrick McSweeney, an attorney for the residents, declined to comment immediately, saying in an email that his clients have to review the court's rulings. He did not say whether they are considering appealing to the U.S. Supreme Court.

Gregory's attorney, Joseph Blackburn Jr., did not immediately respond to an email seeking comment.

“I think this is the end of the line for the plaintiffs,” said University of Virginia law professor Richard Schragger, who has followed the cases closely. He said the property owners’ lawsuit contains one contracts claim under the U.S. Constitution that could be the basis of an appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court, but he didn't think it would succeed, and “the Gregory plaintiff has nowhere else to go for sure.”

Northam's office said in a news release that the state's Department of General Services had begun work on the logistical and security preparations for the statue's removal, but “no action on the statue” was expected until at least next week.

The state has been working on detailed plans for removal that also include the extrication of a time capsule thought to be tucked inside the base.

The 21-foot (6-meter) statue is expected to be cut into pieces that can fit under highway overpasses as it is taken to an undisclosed storage site.

The Northam administration has said it will seek public input on the statue’s future. For now, the 40-foot (12-meter) pedestal will be left in place amid efforts to rethink the design of Richmond's Monument Avenue. Some racial justice advocates see the pedestal as a symbol of the protest movement that erupted after Floyd’s killing and don’t want it moved.

The Lee statue was the first of five Confederate monuments to be erected on the avenue, at a time when the Civil War and Reconstruction were long over, but Jim Crow racial segregation laws were on the rise.

When the statue arrived in 1890 from France, where it was created, thousands of Virginians used wagons to help pull it in pieces for more than a mile to the place where it now stands. White residents celebrated the statue of the Civil War hero and native Virginian, but many Black residents have long seen it as a monument that glorifies slavery.

The city of Richmond, which was the capital of the Confederacy for most of the Civil War, has removed more than a dozen other pieces of Confederate statuary on city land since Floyd’s death, which prompted the removal of Confederate monuments in cities across the country.

[BoSoxGal]

Buh-bye!

[Gob]

Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness. When change is absolute there remains no being to improve and no direction is set for possible improvement: and when experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. In the first stage of life the mind is frivolous and easily distracted, it misses progress by failing in consecutiveness and persistence. This is the condition of children and barbarians, in which instinct has learned nothing from experience."

[MajGenl.Meade]

Meade's OK - beat the traitorous bastard at Gettysburg and thrashed him all the way back to Appomattox (along with the ride-along Grant).

More seriously . . . I'm fine with it. Some of these statues have a place in museums, battlefields, private property and cemeteries. Probably not this one dedicated to Lee.

And not all statues to real persons or fictional ones are worthy of preservation. Some should never exist and presumably didn't - Benedict Arnold, Simon LeGree, Lizzie Borden (and no, that's not her), John Wilkes Booth.

[Joe Guy]

I was thinking that you might like to have the statue to keep on your trophy shelf.

[Bicycle Bill]

I do find it strange that communities continue to erect and maintain statues in public places to make-believe characters like "The Mothman" (Point Pleasant, WV). "Andy Gump" (Lake Geneva, WI), "Superman" (Metropolis, IL), or "Arthur Fonzarelli" (Milwaukee, WI) — even a huge fucking fiberglass bull (Audubon, IA).

Meanwhile, significant figures in American history — and like it or not, people like Christopher Columbus and Robert E. Lee were, and still are, significant figures in American history — no longer merit statues in their honor unless they are relegated to some dusty corner of a museum or other out-of-the-way location.

-"BB"-

[MajGenl.Meade]

Christopher Columbus and Robert E. Lee were, and still are, significant figures in American history

Significant in American history yes, but one has nothing to with the USA and the other was a traitor to the USA. Statues in the US not really necessary or missed, I think

[Big RR]

And not all statues to real persons or fictional ones are worthy of preservation. Some should never exist and presumably didn't - Benedict Arnold, Simon LeGree, Lizzie Borden (and no, that's not her), John Wilkes Booth.

What about Sitting Bull? Rumor has it that there's a giant statue of him being carved out of a mountain in South Dakota. I believe he led an army fighting the US forces much like Lee did. FWIW, the statue I'd like to see gone is the Statue of Rocky outside the Philadelphia Museum of Art, but that's just me.

Personally, I'm more than happy to leave it up to the locals who have to see the statue every day to decide what to do with it.

[ex-khobar Andy]

Well I've always liked the Little Mermaid in Copenhagen.

Turns out she has a rival, and the Copenhagen locals are up in arms about it.

[Bicycle Bill]

Well I've always liked the Little Mermaid in Copenhagen.

Turns out she has a rival, and the Copenhagen locals are up in arms about it.

Can't make it to Copenhagen to see the original one?



Just head to Kimballton, IA.

-"BB"-

[Sue U]

FWIW, the statue I'd like to see gone is the Statue of Rocky outside the Philadelphia Museum of Art, but that's just me.

Eh, if it gets tourists to the Art Museum -- or even to the pretzel and hot dog carts outside -- I'm happy to leave it where it is.

[Big RR]

Maybe, but in the few times I have seen it, I've never seen any tourists looking at the statue/taking seifies going into the museum. To me it's just out of place, a movie statue has no more lace being at the entrance to a fine arts museum than the Mona Lisa does in a sports stadium, but I'm happy to leave its retention/removal up to the people who live in Philadelphia.

[Guinevere]

And not all statues to real persons or fictional ones are worthy of preservation. Some should never exist and presumably didn't - Benedict Arnold, Simon LeGree, Lizzie Borden (and no, that's not her), John Wilkes Booth.

What about Sitting Bull? Rumor has it that there's a giant statue of him being carved out of a mountain in South Dakota. I believe he led an army fighting the US forces much like Lee did. FWIW, the statue I'd like to see gone is the Statue of Rocky outside the Philadelphia Museum of Art, but that's just me.

Personally, I'm more than happy to leave it up to the locals who have to see the statue every day to decide what to do with it.

Actually its Crazy Horse — https://crazyhorsememorial.org/ - and not a rumor. Its been ongoing for decades. I saw it on my cross-country tour in 2003.

[eddieq]

The statue was, for a time, moved to be in front of the Spectrum (since demolished arena). IIRC, there was quite the uproar about it.

[MajGenl.Meade]

I believe he led an army fighting the US forces much like Lee did.

Not correct. A foreign government (U.S) violated solemn treaties and invaded the Black Hills on the usual grounds - there's gold in them thar!

Crazy Horse and Gall +++ resisted an assault on their village by part of an army sent to beat them into submission

Now unless one is an apologist for Confederate slave holders, one does not accept that the states in rebellion against their own government in 1861 and which attacked that government first (you started it - no you did - no you did and so on] were resisting invasion by a foreign enemy which had signed agreements never to do such a thing.

Of course you don't

[Bicycle Bill]

And not all statues to real persons or fictional ones are worthy of preservation. Some should never exist and presumably didn't - Benedict Arnold, Simon LeGree, Lizzie Borden (and no, that's not her), John Wilkes Booth.

What about Sitting Bull? Rumor has it that there's a giant statue of him being carved out of a mountain in South Dakota. I believe he led an army fighting the US forces much like Lee did. FWIW, the statue I'd like to see gone is the Statue of Rocky outside the Philadelphia Museum of Art, but that's just me.

Personally, I'm more than happy to leave it up to the locals who have to see the statue every day to decide what to do with it.

Actually its Crazy Horse — https://crazyhorsememorial.org/ - and not a rumor. Its been ongoing for decades. I saw it on my cross-country tour in 2003.

When my family took a road trip to Yellowstone by way of the Black Hills back in the summer of '72, we saw it being worked on and even back then they had supposedly been blasting and carving on the mountain for something like twenty years already.  You REALLY had to have a very vivid imagination to visualize Korczak Ziolkowski's ultimate goal from what you were seeing on the mountain itself.  Fifty years later, it's still a long ways from done, but it has been starting to look more like its creator's original concept.

Incidentally, both Ziolkowski and his wife have died, and the work is being carried on by his children under the auspices of the Crazy Horse Memorial Foundation, which is not accepting Federal funding but depends on donations and revenue from visitors who pay admission to be permitted access to the monument's work area.  So, realistically, unless someone drops a HUUUGGEEEE donation onto the project or they scale back on the original design, I don't think any of us will be around (hell, I wasn't even born yet when they STARTED it) once they finally complete it.

-"BB"-

[Big RR]

You're right bb, Crazy Horse. I was watching a western with Sitting Bull in it this morning, but that's no excuse.