A victory by a transgender MMA fighter - who once served in the US Army Special Forces - over a French woman prompted an immediate backlash on social media from many who say it is unfair for a trans woman to compete against a cis-gendered athlete in the sport.
'A biological male getting into a cage and kicking a woman around' is not progress, said conservative talk show host Benedict Spence.
Alana McLaughlin, 38, won her first professional fight at the Combate Global prelims Friday by forcing Celine Provost into submission with chokehold in the second round.
Adrian Hilton, a university lecturer, tweeted sarcastically that while 'opportunity is endless' for women in sports, it doesn't apply in this case.
'When a former US Army Special Forces soldier becomes a trans woman #MMA fighter and chokes a female competitor into submission, I'm not sure the opportunity for women in sport is any longer endless,' he wrote.
McLaughlin, who began her transition in 2010 after spending six years in the US Army special forces, responded to the backlash on Twitter.
'I'm getting a lot of variations of the same nasty messages calling me a cheater like I didn't just get beat on for a round and a half. Y'all need to show Céline Provost some respect and take your concern trolling elsewhere.'
'Transphobes are just making my block hand stronger.'
Combat sports podcaster Angel David Castro wrote: 'Alana McLaughlin transitioned 5 years ago, which means that "she" lived 33 years of her life as a man.'
'Tonight McLaughlin fought and beat a biological woman... what a shock.'
MMA commentator @SafeBetMMA wrote: 'I think people can identify with whatever they like but I don't think this has a place in combat sports.'
'Y'all think this is ok and empowering to transgenders?'
'I respect trans rights; however, how is this fair, seriously?' wrote another commentator on Twitter.
'I respect trans rights all day but this is an unfair advantage,' posted another.
'Alternative headline: "Man cheats,"' posted Jessica O'Donnell, a writer for the Blaze in the replies to a New York Post article about the win.
Others in feminist circles regarded the bout as an example of abuse.
''Male violence against women as a public sport? #NoThankYou,' posted Genevieve Gluck, a contributor to Canadian feminist website Feminist Current.
Many agreed.
'Wow. I did not foresee the day we applauded men beating women,' one response read. 'What a stunningly brave new world.'
'This is disgusting and dangerous,' another posted.
McLaughlin is the second openly transgender athlete to fight MMA professionally in the US, following Fallon Fox who made history in 2012 with her debut, and who retired in 2014.
'I want to pick up the mantle that Fallon put down,' she told Outsports.
Provost, 35, a school teacher from suburban Paris, said she had no qualms about getting into the ring with an opponent who was born a man.
Re: Beating up women for fun
Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 3:36 pm
by Big RR
This is going to become an increasing concern in many sports as transgender individual males t choose to compete. It could just as easily be a mle who undergoes the surgery and wants to compete as a woman against women. How the sports and society will handle it is uncertain right now. Might a male who is very talented cannot achieve dominance in his chosen sport choose to undergo gender reassignment and compete as a woman; sure, the surgery is not something to be taken lightly, but some who have trained their entire lives might choose it. Will their genetic makeup give them an unfair advantage ins some sports? Should that be permitted?
Re: Beating up women for fun
Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 3:47 pm
by BoSoxGal
I am normally very progressive, but I have serious concerns about this issue of trans women competing against biological women in sport.
Re: Beating up women for fun
Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 3:57 pm
by Bicycle Bill
Personally, I think MMA and any of these other 'combat sports' or gladiator-like 'Toughman' contests, full-contact karate, and anything else — including boxing — should be outlawed, or at the very least heavily regulated.
I fail to see the 'sport' in watching two people, even if they are biologically identical, get locked into a cage and proceed to wail on each other until one is beaten senseless or into submission. If I wanted to watch a down-and-dirty, scuffling-on-the-floor bar-room brawl, there's plenty of places I can find one and not have to pay money to see it, either.
Of course, I also fail to see the pleasure in watching a bunch of guys sitting around a table playing Texas Hold-'em on the TV, too. Poker, like sex, was never intended to be a spectator sport. -"BB"-
Re: Beating up women for fun
Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:05 pm
by Big RR
I don't watch MMA, but I do watch football and Boxing and have no real problem with allowing two consenting adults to participate in those sports so long as reasonable precautions are taken to make them safer (such as equipment in football and having the referee stop the bout in boxing when a competitor does not defend himself (Rocky wouldn't have made it beyond the second round); but I agree they are not safe, and think the competitors need to understand the risks.
Of course Bill, if enough people agree with you, those sports will disappear as the spectators will drop, as will the money for the promoters and competitors.
Re: Beating up women for fun
Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:25 pm
by Scooter
Strangely absent from commenting on this is the woman who lost the fight, who we must assume had no issue with fighting with, and losing to, a trans woman. Perhaps people can take a lesson from her on how to react to this...
Re: Beating up women for fun
Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:34 pm
by Big RR
I can't argue with your point re a trans woman (or any woman for that matter) fighting in a men's division (although the opposite is more of a concern), but I do understand the concerns raised in the initial post.
FWIW, i had a friend who had a son who wrestled from age 8 through college; when he was 9 they permitted girls to wrestle as well (at least through 8th grade, not sure about high school). He was concerned as to how to wrestle against a female opponent, and his father said treat her the same as any male opponent. I agreed and said it would be a disrespect to her to do any less.
I can't argue with your point re a trans woman (or any woman for that matter) fighting in a men's division (although the opposite is more of a concern), but I do understand the concerns raised in the initial post.
FWIW, i had a friend who had a son who wrestled from age 8 through college; when he was 9 they permitted girls to wrestle as well (at least through 8th grade, not sure about high school). He was concerned as to how to wrestle against a female opponent, and his father said treat her the same as any male opponent. I agreed and said it would be a disrespect to her to do any less.
I think the concerns most boys would feel about wrestling with girls at that age - grade school/middle school - have to do with awkwardness about touching the girls in the ways you would have to in carrying out typical wrestling holds. Kids of that age - boys of that age - haven’t yet bulked up in the way that boys do from middle school age on. I knew lots of scrawny boys in middle school who were beasts by senior year of high school.
As to the reaction of the French biological female MMA fighter in this particular instance - she may be wholeheartedly in support of the concept of trans women fighting biological women in the sport, or she may be unwilling to speak out otherwise. The backlash that happens to people who speak out on this issue has been headline news, the case of JK Rowling just one of the most obvious.
Again, I’ve been an LGBTQ ally since I was 7 years old and my mother first explained about my Uncle Bobby who lived with his partner my Uncle Jerry, before we went to stay with them in Silver Lake, LA and they both took us to Disneyland. A few years later my mother explained about my Aunt Leona, who only visited us when my Uncle Roy wasn’t around. As conservative military as my father was, as bigoted as he was about race and ethnicity and religion, he was totally accepting of his two big brothers, one who was gay and one who was a transvestite. I consider myself blessed to have had those two uncles, because from a very early age I have just been totally okay with people being whoever they are, so long as they aren’t intentionally hurting other people.
My only concerns with trans people are the issue of fully developed adult men transitioning and then competing in sports against biological women, because one simply cannot deny the science behind the physiological advantage the years of testosterone have given them - even if they are presently taking testosterone inhibitors, that course of treatment will never undo the way their bodies developed and bulked up through normal male puberty and early adulthood.
The other concern I have is with the very rapidly growing population of young kids and teens transitioning, and the industry of medical and psychological treatment growing up around that population. I have very mixed feelings on this issue; I’m well aware of the shockingly high rate of suicide and homelessness among trans kids and I want them to have all the support they need to feel they belong in this world. But I’m also keenly aware that there is a significant and growing voice in the medical profession raising alarms about whether some trans kids are reacting to homophobia and other social influences in pursuing transition. It is particularly alarming to me that girls transitioning to boys outnumber boys transitioning to girls by a massive factor - in the UK, for instance, it’s 70% the former and only 30% the latter. Does misogyny play a role here? I am also aware that there is a growing population of trans reversals, and a much higher rate of male to female trans persons wanting to have their transition reversed. Again, is misogyny at play?
And I hesitate to ever bring up my concerns on these trans issues among any population of people with whom I interact, because there is a very different culture developing now wherein conversations on such matters, even if they clearly exist, are just not acceptable to many folks. I sympathize with JK Rowling in this regard.
Strangely absent from commenting on this is the woman who lost the fight, who we must assume had no issue with fighting with, and losing to, a trans woman. Perhaps people can take a lesson from her on how to react to this...
I think the concerns most boys would feel about wrestling with girls at that age - grade school/middle school - have to do with awkwardness about touching the girls in the ways you would have to in carrying out typical wrestling holds. Kids of that age - boys of that age - haven’t yet bulked up in the way that boys do from middle school age on. I knew lots of scrawny boys in middle school who were beasts by senior year of high school.
As to the reaction of the French biological female MMA fighter in this particular instance - she may be wholeheartedly in support of the concept of trans women fighting biological women in the sport, or she may be unwilling to speak out otherwise. The backlash that happens to people who speak out on this issue has been headline news, the case of JK Rowling just one of the most obvious.
Again, I’ve been an LGBTQ ally since I was 7 years old and my mother first explained about my Uncle Bobby who lived with his partner my Uncle Jerry, before we went to stay with them in Silver Lake, LA and they both took us to Disneyland. A few years later my mother explained about my Aunt Leona, who only visited us when my Uncle Roy wasn’t around. As conservative military as my father was, as bigoted as he was about race and ethnicity and religion, he was totally accepting of his two big brothers, one who was gay and one who was a transvestite. I consider myself blessed to have had those two uncles, because from a very early age I have just been totally okay with people being whoever they are, so long as they aren’t intentionally hurting other people.
My only concerns with trans people are the issue of fully developed adult men transitioning and then competing in sports against biological women, because one simply cannot deny the science behind the physiological advantage the years of testosterone have given them - even if they are presently taking testosterone inhibitors, that course of treatment will never undo the way their bodies developed and bulked up through normal male puberty and early adulthood.
The other concern I have is with the very rapidly growing population of young kids and teens transitioning, and the industry of medical and psychological treatment growing up around that population. I have very mixed feelings on this issue; I’m well aware of the shockingly high rate of suicide and homelessness among trans kids and I want them to have all the support they need to feel they belong in this world. But I’m also keenly aware that there is a significant and growing voice in the medical profession raising alarms about whether some trans kids are reacting to homophobia and other social influences in pursuing transition. It is particularly alarming to me that girls transitioning to boys outnumber boys transitioning to girls by a massive factor - in the UK, for instance, it’s 70% the former and only 30% the latter. Does misogyny play a role here? I am also aware that there is a growing population of trans reversals, and a much higher rate of male to female trans persons wanting to have their transition reversed. Again, is misogyny at play?
And I hesitate to ever bring up my concerns on these trans issues among any population of people with whom I interact, because there is a very different culture developing now wherein conversations on such matters, even if they clearly exist, are just not acceptable to many folks. I sympathize with JK Rowling in this regard.
Any criticism, no matter how reasonable, risks a dogpile, where the one speaking out-no matter how reasonably-risks made into a pariah. Some people don't care (like billionaire authors), but I suspect Celene Provost might actually want to compete again, WITHOUT worrying about protests and mobs.
Strangely absent from commenting on this is the woman who lost the fight, who we must assume had no issue with fighting with, and losing to, a trans woman. Perhaps people can take a lesson from her on how to react to this...
Is she out of the hospital yet?
My mistake, I missed her comment the first time:
Provost, 35, a school teacher from suburban Paris, said she had no qualms about getting into the ring with an opponent who was born a man.
That should settle it, but it won't.
Re: Beating up women for fun
Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:22 am
by Scooter
And as far as J.K. Rowling goes...
She may couch her arguments in terms that sound reasonable, making it seem like she supports the rights of trans people to live their lives. But she always opposes the right of trans women to be in any women-exclusive spaces - bathrooms, prisons, sports, etc. Which means that she does not, in fact, accept that trans woman are woman. And all of her concern trolling about protecting women never seems to apply to trans women, who are of course at far greater risk of physical harm than cisgender women.
Strangely absent from commenting on this is the woman who lost the fight, who we must assume had no issue with fighting with, and losing to, a trans woman. Perhaps people can take a lesson from her on how to react to this...
Is she out of the hospital yet?
My mistake, I missed her comment the first time:
Provost, 35, a school teacher from suburban Paris, said she had no qualms about getting into the ring with an opponent who was born a man.
That should settle it, but it won't.
Did she say that BEFORE or AFTER getting beaten to a pulp?
Why should one person's opinion "settle it"? Does she speak for all MMA female fighters?
When and if other cisgender women MMA fighters have occasion to fight against a trans woman, they can speak and decide for themselves whether or not to do it. They are not indentured servants, after all.
They certainly wouldn't appear to be the types to appreciate bigoted men like the commentators quoted in the article to be coming to their "aid" as if they were damsels in distress.
Re: Beating up women for fun
Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:54 pm
by BoSoxGal
For those who are interested, there is a lot of carefully sourced science in this article establishing why trans women fighting biological women is inherently unfair and potentially very dangerous.
Scooter I guess you are saying that I cannot be a true trans ally unless I agree with you on this subject?
I think that’s an unfortunate position to take and is undoubtedly going to result in fewer trans allies, not more.
Re: Beating up women for fun
Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:19 pm
by Big RR
When and if other cisgender women MMA fighters have occasion to fight against a trans woman, they can speak and decide for themselves whether or not to do it. They are not indentured servants, after all.
I am not certain about MMA, but in most sports, amateur and professional, one must either perform or risk being barred from future competition. The sport has to decide which types of competitions it will permit. Personally, I think if a trans woman chooses to compete against a male competitor (like here), she should be free to do so, but for the integrity of most sports, I think the governing bodies have to define what sort of competitions they will and won't permit (and I do think trans women who were previously men competing against biological women can be a problem ins some sports); otherwise, we can just do away with separate men's and women's sports divisions. Just as we set weight classes and other divisions in sports to make the contests more interesting, I do not think we should have men (even men who have changed their gender medically) competing against women, but I am happy to eave that up to the governing body of the sport.
ersonally, I think if a trans woman chooses to compete against a male competitor (like here),
Just to clarify, the OP we are discussing is about a trans woman (biological man transitioned to woman) competing against a biological woman - no male competitors involved.
