Designer poverty...

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Gob
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Designer poverty...

Post by Gob »

British university students are being mandated to take a diversity course and test which forces them to agree with several notions concerning race, including that wearing second-hand clothes can be “an example of white privilege.”

Students at the University of Kent will receive a gold star should they correctly answer 13 questions concerning race and white privilege. If they answer incorrectly, they are redirected to take the course again, The Telegraph reports.

The course forces students to agree with a number of unusual statements, including the notion that wearing second-hand clothes without others blaming it on “the bad morals, the poverty or the illiteracy of my race” is an example of white privilege.

The four-hour course, titled ‘Expect Respect’ and seen by The Telegraph, also claims white privilege is present if someone “can go shopping without being followed or harassed,” as well as being sure of having “neutral or pleasant” neighbours. “I can do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to my race” is also noted as a proponent of white privilege.

The test, hosted on student study platform moodle, also argues British society is built on systematic racism, including schools, courts, and churches.

“We expect all students, regardless of programme, level or site of study, to complete the module,” lecturers were told in an internal email. It continues to suggest that the course informs students of the behaviour that is expected of a Kent scholar.

The module is also “supporting everyone to ensure all members of our community are treated with dignity and respect,” a spokesperson for the university told The Times.

Unsurprisingly, the mandated acknowledgement of white privilege has not been well received by everyone, including staff at the university itself. Professors told The Telegraph that the move was a “philistine” betrayal of academia’s core values. One lecturer said they would not make their students take the module.

The opposition has also been very clear on social media, with many people focusing in on the contents of the test. Several people said they didn’t understand how wearing second-hand clothing was an example of white privilege. “We had hand me down clothes as children in the 60s, I just don’t understand how we got here and why,” one person tweeted.

https://www.rt.com/uk/536134-kent-unive ... hite-race/
I can go shopping without being “without being followed or harassed,” it's nothing to do with my skin colour or privilege though
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: Designer poverty...

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

“I can do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to my race” is also noted as a proponent of white privilege.
That's an interesting one and, in a way, I can see why it has bearing. It's surely true (no?) that whether white people like me do well or poorly at anything, we are not told (and do not expect) that our "race" has anything to with anything. I've never been told I was a credit to my race - nor have I been told I was a detriment to my race; in other areas, opinions may differ.

When a white person achieves something unusually well (such as Hojbjerg scoring a goal), I can't imagine it being seen as a credit to race classifications. But then again, when Son or Ndombele make an exceptional move or score, who on earth thinks "oh, he's a credit to Asiatics or blacks". Nobody.

On the other hand, living here, it's only too obvious that an achievement by an African-African is regarded by his or her own race as a credit to African-ness. It's not white people saying that (I think there's a law agin it anyway but.....)

So aside from natural ineptitude, is the only reason that no one has ever said of me that I'm a credit to my race is because I'm white (pale tan?) and therefore expected to be a credit etc. It's certainly true that in our years here, we've more than twice been told by black people that we are trusted because we are white . . . foolish assumption or not.
Last edited by MajGenl.Meade on Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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BoSoxGal
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Re: Designer poverty...

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MajGenl.Meade wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:32 am
On the other hand, living here, it's only too obvious that an achievement by an African-African is regarded by his or her own race as a credit to African-ness. It's not white people saying that (I think there's a law agin it anyway but.....)
Interesting that you can be so far off base in your perspective on this issue.

Yes, it IS white people saying that. Bigots say that all the time, it is a standard bigot thing. ‘You’re a credit to your race’ and the unspoken but clearly intended next clause to that sentence is ‘which is generally otherwise made up of underachievers thanks to [insert racist stereotype here].’

In fact it was such a standard bigoted white person saying that it was a very big deal when sportswriter Jimmy Cannon issued the now famous quote about boxer Joe Louis: ‘he’s a credit to his race . . . the human race.’ Jimmy Cannon issued that quote in response to a story about Joe Louis talking about white people calling him a credit to his race.

It’s a racist phrase, however much you want to dance around it. It was a racist phrase long before I was ever born and long before ‘wokery’ or whatever.

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Re: Designer poverty...

Post by Big RR »

Back to the OP, I don't see a problem; like much education, you take a course, are taught something, and tested on your retention of what is taught. You are not required to alter your belief in any way, and can promptly forge, or ignore, what you were taught. Is it a waste of time? I guess it depends on your perspective, but then a lot of what passes as education can be classed as a "waste of time". And it may, just may, encourage a student to look at preconceived notions in a different way.

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Re: Designer poverty...

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You don't see it as indoctrination then, having tests on these ideas, and certain views being compulsory?
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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Re: Designer poverty...

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

BoSoxGal wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:38 pm
MajGenl.Meade wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:32 am
On the other hand, living here, it's only too obvious that an achievement by an African-African is regarded by his or her own race as a credit to African-ness. It's not white people saying that (I think there's a law agin it anyway but.....)
Interesting that you can be so far off base in your perspective on this issue.
Yes, it IS white people saying that.
Er, no it isn't. You completely misunderstand. In South Africa, here, black South Africans regard success by their own as being a credit to the race. We're speaking about public claiming - not private mutterings. I'm speaking of black people saying that - not white people.

I wrote nothing about the USA UK or historically demeaning statements made by white people about black people. Get it? Nothing. Zero. F-ing zilch.
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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Re: Designer poverty...

Post by Burning Petard »

I agree with RR.

Compulsory Indoctrination? Not so. At least in my experience and as indicated by independent discussions with my two children and four grandchildren.
Only a very few very naive students have not long since learned how to detect the answer to this kind of question that gets the gold star, without permitting said answer to influence their own thinking or behavior beyond the next test.

snailgate

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Gob
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Re: Designer poverty...

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Burning Petard wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 4:09 pm

Only a very few very naive students have not long since learned how to detect the answer to this kind of question that gets the gold star, without permitting said answer to influence their own thinking or behavior beyond the next test.

snailgate
So what is the purpose of the tests and awards then?
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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Re: Designer poverty...

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MajGenl.Meade wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:53 pm
BoSoxGal wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:38 pm
MajGenl.Meade wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:32 am
On the other hand, living here, it's only too obvious that an achievement by an African-African is regarded by his or her own race as a credit to African-ness. It's not white people saying that (I think there's a law agin it anyway but.....)
Interesting that you can be so far off base in your perspective on this issue.
Yes, it IS white people saying that.
Er, no it isn't. You completely misunderstand. In South Africa, here, black South Africans regard success by their own as being a credit to the race. We're speaking about public claiming - not private mutterings. I'm speaking of black people saying that - not white people.

I wrote nothing about the USA UK or historically demeaning statements made by white people about black people. Get it? Nothing. Zero. F-ing zilch.
Oh okay. I’m sure you’re right that in one of the most racist countries on the planet white South Africans have never used that term in the same way it is used by white people all over the planet. Thanks for the clarification.
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Re: Designer poverty...

Post by Big RR »

Gob wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 4:20 pm
Burning Petard wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 4:09 pm

Only a very few very naive students have not long since learned how to detect the answer to this kind of question that gets the gold star, without permitting said answer to influence their own thinking or behavior beyond the next test.

snailgate
So what is the purpose of the tests and awards then?
I see two purposes--the first is to appear(and primary, IMHO) purpose is to permit the university to appear be doing something when it actually is not; but the second is, perhaps, to convince people to look at things differently than they ordinarily would. So even if they don't agree that it is "White privilege" to being able to shop without being followed or harassed (and I don't, I think it should be the right of everyone, and the fact that any one person or group is denied it means they are being discriminated against, not that I am getting a special privilege), the reader might question why that question is be there, and get an understanding that such following/harassment might foisted on non whites, denying them their rights. I sincerely doubt anyone is going to be "indoctrinated" by this, and the fact that there are "right" and "wrong" answers to the questions reinforces this.

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Re: Designer poverty...

Post by Bicycle Bill »

Gob wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 4:20 pm
Burning Petard wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 4:09 pm

Only a very few very naive students have not long since learned how to detect the answer to this kind of question that gets the gold star, without permitting said answer to influence their own thinking or behavior beyond the next test.

snailgate
So what is the purpose of the tests and awards then?
Positive reinforcement for the people administering and issuing them.   It lets them convince themselves that they have crafted an appropriate response to a problem and are thereby accomplishing something.

It also lets them justify the megabucks they pull down as the "Director of Minority Affairs" department and other diversity-related positions, as well as the consultants' fees they get when they convince another school to buy into this bullshit.
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Re: Designer poverty...

Post by Big RR »

And FWIW, going through this sort of module is good training for the corporate world where the average employee will have to undergo hours of such training on the latest flavor of the month management and project systems or corporate culture sessions, pass the test, and then never really use any of it. The most wasted times of my career in corporate America were spent on such endeavors, and I can easily pass the tests without paying attention to the presentation. Live presentations and discussions are devoted to things more important (a least sometimes, I wasted a lot of time in them as well), onlne modules to the things that have little weight or relevancy.i

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Re: Designer poverty...

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BoSoxGal wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 5:19 pm
Oh okay. I’m sure you’re right that in one of the most racist countries on the planet white South Africans have never used that term in the same way it is used by white people all over the planet. Thanks for the clarification.
I stated no such thing and you are lying. To what purpose, I don't know.
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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Gob
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Re: Designer poverty...

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Big RR wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 6:19 pm
I see two purposes--the first is to appear(and primary, IMHO) purpose is to permit the university to appear be doing something when it actually is not; but the second is, perhaps, to convince people to look at things differently than they ordinarily would. So even if they don't agree that it is "White privilege" to being able to shop without being followed or harassed (and I don't, I think it should be the right of everyone, and the fact that any one person or group is denied it means they are being discriminated against, not that I am getting a special privilege), the reader might question why that question is be there, and get an understanding that such following/harassment might foisted on non whites, denying them their rights. I sincerely doubt anyone is going to be "indoctrinated" by this, and the fact that there are "right" and "wrong" answers to the questions reinforces this.
So you get an answer wrong, and you have to resit the test. I ask again, what is the purpose of this test?

Why are students being tested on these concepts? If you're doing a math degree, what purpose do they serve?
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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Re: Designer poverty...

Post by Big RR »

But that's the point, isn't it? There is no wrong or right answer, just the answer the designers of the module want you to put down. Again, it's not accomplishing anything, just looking like it is.

And as I said before, it is good practice for the same sort of tests being given in corporations; you have to learn how to give them the answer they want from the way the question is asked.

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Re: Designer poverty...

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Gob wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 6:29 am
So you get an answer wrong, and you have to resit the test.
Nothing in the quoted Telegraph article (republished on RT, which is in itself something to consider) says that "a" (or any other particular number of) "wrong" answers means having to "resit the test."
Gob wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 6:29 am
I ask again, what is the purpose of this test?

Why are students being tested on these concepts? If you're doing a math degree, what purpose do they serve?
If you had read for comprehension, the article says the "four-hour course" module "informs students of the behaviour that is expected of a Kent scholar" so as to "ensure all members of our community are treated with dignity and respect,” by identifying and considering the ways in which "British society is built on systematic racism, including schools, courts, and churches."

The purpose of the course is not to answer 13 questions "correctly" or to "force" students "to agree with several notions concerning race." It is to aid students in understanding how SOME perceptions, behaviors and social conditions MIGHT in SOME CIRCUMSTANCES be seen as examples of racial discrimination and/or white privilege (which are really just two ways of saying the same thing). If students were to actually understand these things, they might avoid conduct that is offensive to the school's expected norms and even (heaven forbid!) engage in some self-examination of their own biases. Whether this particular approach to the issue is good or bad or useful or not may be debatable, but the underlying issues of understanding systemic racism and white privilege are certainly worth examining.
GAH!

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Gob
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Re: Designer poverty...

Post by Gob »

Big RR wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 2:28 pm
There is no wrong or right answer, just the answer the designers of the module want you to put down. Again, it's not accomplishing anything, just looking like it is.
So the testers do not want "right" answers, they want the answers they have predetermined to be politically correct.
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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Re: Designer poverty...

Post by Big RR »

No, my guess is most of them don't really care; this is more of a theater appearing to do something without doing anything.

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Re: Designer poverty...

Post by Gob »

Sue U wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 2:34 pm


The purpose of the course is not to answer 13 questions "correctly" or to "force" students "to agree with several notions concerning race." It is to aid students in understanding how SOME perceptions, behaviors and social conditions MIGHT in SOME CIRCUMSTANCES be seen as examples of racial discrimination and/or white privilege (which are really just two ways of saying the same thing). If students were to actually understand these things, they might avoid conduct that is offensive to the school's expected norms and even (heaven forbid!) engage in some self-examination of their own biases.
And again I quote;
Students at the University of Kent will receive a gold star should they correctly answer 13 questions concerning race and white privilege. If they answer incorrectly, they are redirected to take the course again,
The course is directed at giving certain perspectives which, should the person taking the course have some moral or philosophical objection to, they do not pass.
Sue U wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 2:34 pm
Whether this particular approach to the issue is good or bad or useful or not may be debatable, but the underlying issues of understanding systemic racism and white privilege are certainly worth examining.
Can you show how the course and the gold star may be in any way a good way of dealing with an issue which may not exist?

You're assuming that an understanding of systemic racism and white privilege is not necessary, but mandatory, for those undertaking that math degree.
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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Gob
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Re: Designer poverty...

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Big RR wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 4:30 pm
No, my guess is most of them don't really care; this is more of a theater appearing to do something without doing anything.
That's my thinking too.
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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