Designer poverty...

[Scooter]

Imagine the gall of a university that attempts to expose students to concepts that might be new to them, and to ask them to try viewing the world from a perspective other than their own. But not at all surprising that the reaction is a hair-on-fire display of white fragility.

[ex-khobar Andy]

The course forces students to agree with a number of unusual statements, including the notion that wearing second-hand clothes without others blaming it on “the bad morals, the poverty or the illiteracy of my race” is an example of white privilege.

I don't, as it happens, understand the sentence.

If a student wears second hand clothes and no-one else blames 'bad morals' (etc.) is that an example of white privilege? On whose part? The student (who might be black) or those 'others' who might or might not blame it on 'bad morals' (etc.)? I really am at sea trying to understand what the sentence is getting at, let alone the truth or otherwise of the assertion. Mind you it's the Torygraph which, among British 'newspapers,' is second only to the Daily Mail in the fatuousness of its editorial and journalistic standards. It does, I admit, have a much better reputation than the Mail on use of grammar, clarity of expression and general attention to detail: but that's not a very high bar.

I have a secondhand shirt which I wear occasionally with pride. It belonged to my little brother who died eleven years ago now. His wife asked me if I wanted anything of his and I took the shirt. I don't think my use of his shirt says anything about my attitudes to white privilege.

[Sue U]

If a student wears second hand clothes and no-one else blames 'bad morals' (etc.) is that an example of white privilege? On whose part? The student (who might be black) or those 'others' who might or might not blame it on 'bad morals' (etc.)? I really am at sea trying to understand what the sentence is getting at, let alone the truth or otherwise of the assertion

I think the point is that when you see a person wearing old out-of-fashion clothes, is your (or anyone else's) thought "Well it's to be expected since [ethnic minority group] folks are poor" or is the thought "Hey that [white] chick is rockin' a retro style." Not necessarily a great choice for examples of white privilege but I trust you can see the point they're attempting to get at.

And again I quote;

Students at the University of Kent will receive a gold star should they correctly answer 13 questions concerning race and white privilege. If they answer incorrectly, they are redirected to take the course again,

The course is directed at giving certain perspectives which, should the person taking the course have some moral or philosophical objection to, they do not pass.

You might have some "moral or philosophical objection" to the theory of evolution or to psychoanalysis but if you don't understand their perspectives and principles you're going to fail Intro to Biology and Intro to Psychology. And it could be that if you actually learned something about them you might see why others think they can be valuable tools.

Can you show how the course and the gold star may be in any way a good way of dealing with an issue which may not exist?

You're assuming that an understanding of systemic racism and white privilege is not necessary, but mandatory, for those undertaking that math degree.

Are you seriously suggesting that either systemic racism or white privilege, or both, "may not exist"? (I don't know if "gold star" has some other meaning in Britain, but I took that to be the Telegraph's snotty condescension in describing successful completion of the program.)

And I don't know if you've been to university, but even math majors are required to take courses outside of mathematics. It's part of what a university is supposed to offer in educating a student to see a wider world, use critical thinking skills and become a reasonably well-rounded sentient being.

[Big RR]

But Sue, do you think a course like this, where the objective is to answer a number of questions "correctly" honestly teaches anything. There are a lot of ways to teach an understanding of different perspectives, but they all involve a significant amount of discussion of the issues. Providing the answers they want to a series of questions teaches nothing (except, maybe, how to deal with this sort of course in the workplace).

[Scooter]

Presumably the course provided substantially more than dictating the correct answers to 13 questions. One would assume at the very least there was some discussion of systemic racism and white privilege and how the scenarios that appeared on the test, or others like them, were examples of one or the other.

[Bicycle Bill]

Imagine the gall of a university that attempts to expose students to concepts that might be new to them, and to ask them to try viewing the world from a perspective other than their own. But not at all surprising that the reaction is a hair-on-fire display of white fragility.

Exposing someone to concepts is one thing.   I have been exposed to a variety of concepts over the course of my lifetime, including such concepts that the earth is flat; UFOs and space aliens are real; one can determine their destiny by studying the position of stars and planets at the time of their birth, the use of Tarot cards. or the way three Chinese coins fall (the i Ching); and that the 9/11 attacks were a false-flag operation by the US government to stir up anti-Muslim sentiment, but I still get to pick and choose which of these concepts, if any, that I accept.   I am not compelled to parrot these concepts by being forced, under the threat of one form of penalty or another, to satisfactorily answer questions as if I accept these concepts as unequivocally true.

This is, for all intents and purposes, just one more example of the on-going pissing matches to show who is the 'most woke'.

And just wait until they get around to 'reparations' for past actions in all non-POC cultures, dating back over the course of centuries.   You ain't seen nuthin' yet, and the fact that a 96-year-old German woman is currently on trial for alleged 'complicity' in Nazi-era crimes due to her position as a teen-aged secretary in one of the prison/extermination camps is a perfect example of the ridiculous lengths to which some people are willing to go.

-"BB"-

[Sue U]

But Sue, do you think a course like this, where the objective is to answer a number of questions "correctly" honestly teaches anything. There are a lot of ways to teach an understanding of different perspectives, but they all involve a significant amount of discussion of the issues. Providing the answers they want to a series of questions teaches nothing (except, maybe, how to deal with this sort of course in the workplace).

I don't know how effective this course is or even what the metrics for effectiveness are, but it seems to me the goal is to get the student to be able to see how ingrained biases color perception and expectations regarding race and class, so they might at least have some notion how to avoid being offensive racist classist pigs, at least within the school's community. I am certain that in context, the "correct" answers are more like, "I can see how in this situation [x behavior] can be a manifestation of white privilege/racial discrimination" or "I can see how [some aspect of our socio-politico-legal systems] inherently disadvantages minorities." The quoted story in the OP fails to provide much enlightenment about the course itself, providing only the most "outrageous" details to set its focus on snide insinuations and opposition to the program (including "several people" "on social media" and a "tweet" .) I don't read the Telegraph but judging from this article, XKA's description above seems spot on.

ETA:

Also, what Scooter said.

[Scooter]

[Big RR]

Sue--maybe, but when we are discussing perceptions, there is no right or wrong answer, even though the article indicates that students are expected to answer the questions correctly at the end. If the university had groups that discussed the perceptions from different perspectives, and maybe an essay questions at the end that showed the student understood different ways of viewing things, it could be helpful; but telling students that they have to agree with the second hand clothes perceptions being indicative of white privilege (among other questions) to pass shows that the course really had no desire to do anything but permitting the university to check a box and show it's taking racism "seriously". We have to encourage dialogues, not rote memorization, when it comes to racism

[Sue U]

Sue--maybe, but when we are discussing perceptions, there is no right or wrong answer, even though the article indicates that students are expected to answer the questions correctly at the end. If the university had groups that discussed the perceptions from different perspectives, and maybe an essay questions at the end that showed the student understood different ways of viewing things, it could be helpful; but telling students that they have to agree with the second hand clothes perceptions being indicative of white privilege (among other questions) to pass shows that the course really had no desire to do anything but permitting the university to check a box and show it's taking racism "seriously". We have to encourage dialogues, not rote memorization, when it comes to racism

I don't disagree with your ultimate point but I am not necessarily ready to dump an academic program based on a thoroughly one-sided Telegraph article republished on RT. Like I said, this particular program's presentation of the subject matter might be good, bad, useful or not, and I don't see enough here to impugn the school's motives for offering this particular course.

You ain't seen nuthin' yet, and the fact that a 96-year-old German woman is currently on trial for alleged 'complicity' in Nazi-era crimes due to her position as a teen-aged secretary in one of the prison/extermination camps is a perfect example of the ridiculous lengths to which some people are willing to go.

-"BB"-

She tried to flee to escape prosecution. If she is found guilty (as her flight suggests) she can go to jail for the rest of her miserable Nazi life. For the record, I am totally in favor of going to all lengths to find and prosecute Nazi war criminals and their enablers: the world should know that the purusuit of participants in genocide will be eternal and relentless, and should stand as a warning to all others who come after. The only thing "ridiculous" here is that she has managed to live freely and avoid justice for 75 years. You don't get a pass for mass murder just because you've gotten old.

[BoSoxGal]

I have BB on ignore and don’t read his posts 90% of the time, and this reply hilariously reminds me why.

[BoSoxGal]

You ain't seen nuthin' yet, and the fact that a 96-year-old German woman is currently on trial for alleged 'complicity' in Nazi-era crimes due to her position as a teen-aged secretary in one of the prison/extermination camps is a perfect example of the ridiculous lengths to which some people are willing to go.

-"BB"-

She tried to flee to escape prosecution. If she is found guilty (as her flight suggests) she can go to jail for the rest of her miserable Nazi life. For the record, I am totally in favor of going to all lengths to find and prosecute Nazi war criminals and their enablers: the world should know that the purusuit of participants in genocide will be eternal and relentless, and should stand as a warning to all others who come after. The only thing "ridiculous" here is that she has managed to live freely and avoid justice for 75 years. You don't get a pass for mass murder just because you've gotten old.

x googolplex - oh fuck it, x infinity

Genocidal killers and their cheerleaders should be hunted to the end of their days to the ends of the earth. It is shameful how many get away with their monstrous acts. I have nothing but admiration for the countries who continue to hold perpetrators of the Holocaust accountable. This country has mostly just provided them safe haven.

Anyway they are trying this woman as a juvenile because she was at the time of her crimes. She won’t suffer a severe sentence if she even lives to serve it - many of the elderly Nazis prosecuted in recent years as accomplices to atrocities have died while awaiting appeal or on suspended sentences.

The point of the prosecution of such monstrous people even 75 years after their horrific crimes is to bring on them the shame they so richly deserve, as well as some small suffering and hardship that will never compare to the evil they wrought. To remind the world that we will never forget. To honor the millions of victims.

[Bicycle Bill]

I have BB on ignore and don’t read his posts 90% of the time, and this reply hilariously reminds me why.

And there's the difference between you and I.   I don't put anybody on ignore — not liberty, or methuselah, or scooter, or even wesw ... although they are usually so full of shit that even the roots of their hair is brown — and I will read anybody's posts.

To do otherwise is no better than being a mindless Trumpanzee, wrapped up in their MAGA gear and still ranting on about how the election was 'stolen' despite reams of evidence to the contrary.

-"BB"-

[Big RR]

Sue--

I don't disagree with your ultimate point but I am not necessarily ready to dump an academic program based on a thoroughly one-sided Telegraph article republished on RT. Like I said, this particular program's presentation of the subject matter might be good, bad, useful or not, and I don't see enough here to impugn the school's motives for offering this particular course.

I see your point re the Telegraph, but it honestly wouldn't surprise me if it was fairly accurate in this case. But I guess other information may come out about the course.

[Scooter]

In case some still don't get it:

[Gob]

Imagine the gall of a university that attempts to expose students to concepts that might be new to them, and to ask them to try viewing the world from a perspective other than their own. But not at all surprising that the reaction is a hair-on-fire display of white fragility.

Imagine the gall of a university that imagines it is exposing students to concepts that might be new to them, and to demand they view the world from a perspective that is probably already their own. But not at all surprising that the reaction is a hair-on-fire display indignation that someone may question it.

[Gob]

I think the point is that when you see a person wearing old out-of-fashion clothes, is your (or anyone else's) thought "Well it's to be expected since [ethnic minority group] folks are poor" or is the thought "Hey that [white] chick is rockin' a retro style." Not necessarily a great choice for examples of white privilege but I trust you can see the point they're attempting to get at.

There you have a classic example of the problem. What if I imagine every time Sue looks art a Welsh person she sees a Nazi, so then I can condemn Sue for being a racist, even though she is not, and the "problem" only exists in my imagination.

You might have some "moral or philosophical objection" to the theory of evolution or to psychoanalysis but if you don't understand their perspectives and principles you're going to fail Intro to Biology and Intro to Psychology. And it could be that if you actually learned something about them you might see why others think they can be valuable tools.

I'll ask you again, why should someone doing a degree in math be forced to subscribe or pass a test on politically correct thought? Why is this test and "module" for all students?

Are you seriously suggesting that either systemic racism or white privilege, or both, "may not exist"? (I don't know if "gold star" has some other meaning in Britain, but I took that to be the Telegraph's snotty condescension in describing successful completion of the program.)

No, I'm suggesting that this module may not be necessary for all students.

And I don't know if you've been to university, but even math majors are required to take courses outside of mathematics.

Not in the UK, they are not...


Still waiting for someone to tell me why passing this module and test, earning a gold star, in politically correct thinking is a good thing.

[MajGenl.Meade]

The difference between you and I is me

[BoSoxGal]

You ain't seen nuthin' yet, and the fact that a 96-year-old German woman is currently on trial for alleged 'complicity' in Nazi-era crimes due to her position as a teen-aged secretary in one of the prison/extermination camps is a perfect example of the ridiculous lengths to which some people are willing to go.

-"BB"-

She tried to flee to escape prosecution. If she is found guilty (as her flight suggests) she can go to jail for the rest of her miserable Nazi life. For the record, I am totally in favor of going to all lengths to find and prosecute Nazi war criminals and their enablers: the world should know that the purusuit of participants in genocide will be eternal and relentless, and should stand as a warning to all others who come after. The only thing "ridiculous" here is that she has managed to live freely and avoid justice for 75 years. You don't get a pass for mass murder just because you've gotten old.

x googolplex - oh fuck it, x infinity

Genocidal killers and their cheerleaders should be hunted to the end of their days to the ends of the earth. It is shameful how many get away with their monstrous acts. I have nothing but admiration for the countries who continue to hold perpetrators of the Holocaust accountable. This country has mostly just provided them safe haven.

Anyway they are trying this woman as a juvenile because she was at the time of her crimes. She won’t suffer a severe sentence if she even lives to serve it - many of the elderly Nazis prosecuted in recent years as accomplices to atrocities have died while awaiting appeal or on suspended sentences.

The point of the prosecution of such monstrous people even 75 years after their horrific crimes is to bring on them the shame they so richly deserve, as well as some small suffering and hardship that will never compare to the evil they wrought. To remind the world that we will never forget. To honor the millions of victims.

More reasons why we should still be prosecuting old Nazis - because there are still plenty of young Nazis in Germany, and elsewhere.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2021/1 ... tl-vpx.cnn

For those too lazy to watch the short video, beyond the incident the headline describes, it also details recent desecration of the prisoner barracks at Auschwitz with antisemitic graffiti.

Never forget.

[ex-khobar Andy]

The difference between you and I is me

And per Gob:

And I don't know if you've been to university, but even math majors are required to take courses outside of mathematics.


Not in the UK, they are not...

We certainly were in my day. Arts students were required to take a science course and vice versa. I did a year of philosophy with a concetration in philosophy of science. Some of my chemistry friends took economics or sociology or American literature. If you did not do the 'opposite' course: No graduation for you!