Judges have way too much power

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ex-khobar Andy
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Re: Judges have way too much power

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

The weapons charge was dropped because the Wisc law is confusingly written and a 16" barrel is allowed so that teenagers can go hunting. Not the very clear laws against (e.g., ) ninja type weapons in Datsun's post. The intent of the law framers is clear - why else would they ban a couple of bits of wood connected by a length of rope) but the writing of that piece of law was errant. So yes, his carrying of the weapon was at least arguably legal.

Based on what I have read the jury probably got it right. That there are laws which condone this sort of thing is what needs fixing.

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Re: Judges have way too much power

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

exkA is correct.

The very law quoted by datsun contains the get-out clause.
c) This section applies only to a person under 18 years of age who possesses or is armed with a rifle or a shotgun if the person is in violation of s. 941.28
And 941.28 applies only to guns with a barrel length shorter than the AK-type that this little jerk was carrying.

So the law is poorly written - they tried to ban under 18s from carrying naughty weapons, including guns, but tied it to a ban on sawn-offs.

Google rittenhouse motion to dismiss for details if any are needed
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Re: Judges have way too much power

Post by Jarlaxle »

datsunaholic wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:56 am
Did you know...

That half those "facts" in your list are false?

Under Wisconsin Law, Legal possession of firearms under the age of 18 is restricted to hunting and target practice WHEN UNDER ADULT SUPERVISION. So no, Rittenhouse did not have a legal right to be carrying a rifle alone in public.

Gaige Grosskreutz is not a convicted felon. If he was, he would not be allowed to have a concealed carry permit. While his was allegedly expired it was not decades expired. Note that while he was charged with at least one felony count he was never CONVICTED of any, and was in fact permitted to own firearms, and the Glock he had was registered... to him.

Anthony Huber was never convicted for suffocating women. He was convicted for suffocating his BROTHER, and again for kicking his sister.

And... did you know that Grosskreutz, Huber, and Rosenbaum's past run ins don't make an ounce of difference? Rittenhouse didn't know any of that, and even if he did it still wouldn't have been legal. Past mistakes don't mean it's open season for vigilantes.
Kyle wasn't a vigilante. Claiming he was is a lie. He was defending himself against an attack. Had he been a "vigilante", there would be a lot more than two dead scumbags.

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Re: Judges have way too much power

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

Had he been a "vigilante", there would be a lot more than two dead scumbags.
So Anthony Huber, who tried to take down an unknown and uninformed thug with a semi-automatic using the only weapon he had - a skateboard - was a scumbag? For all Huber knew, Rittenhouse might have been a fellow protestor. Huber was a hero like, for example, the scumbags on Flight 93 who tried to protect people on the ground on 9/11, and probably succeeded. (I am using Jarlaxle's word here - please forgive me if that offends you.)

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Re: Judges have way too much power

Post by Jarlaxle »

Anthony Huber, who attacked a fleeing Rittenhouse with a deadly weapon, was a convicted (multiple times) domestic abuser, who threatened his brother with a large knife. Domestic abusers are scumbags. Joseph Rosenbaum was a convicted pederast, who raped five boys, none older than 11. Pederasts are scumbags.

Kyle Rosenbaum was not a vigilante. He was defending himself.

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Re: Judges have way too much power

Post by Bicycle Bill »

Jarlaxle wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:08 pm
Anthony Huber, who attacked a fleeing Rittenhouse with a deadly weapon, was a convicted (multiple times) domestic abuser, who threatened his brother with a large knife. Domestic abusers are scumbags. Joseph Rosenbaum was a convicted pederast, who raped five boys, none older than 11. Pederasts are scumbags.

Kyle Rosenbaum was not a vigilante. He was defending himself.
Whether or not Huber was a domestic abuser or Rosenbaum a pederast has no bearing on the case.  There is no way in hell that the teen-aged tough-guy wanna-be could have known any of this, so this particular bit of past history concerning the two victims is completely and totally irrelevant.  The fact remains that an underaged Rittenhouse crossed state lines as an outside agitator to posture with a deadly weapon under the guise of protecting property in a municipality that was not his own.   He had no business being in Kenosha under those conditions, and if he had stayed home in Antioch both Huber and Rosenbaum would (more likely than not) still be alive.

And just in passing, I would love to have access to your history, going back over your lifetime, to see what peccadilloes YOU might have committed or what skeletons are hiding in YOUR closet.  Maybe you have a citation for underage drinking, or there is evidence that you might have smoked marijuana back in the day?  From there, it's a short step for someone to label YOU as an alcoholic or a drug addict and, by definition, a scumbag yourself.
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Re: Judges have way too much power

Post by Jarlaxle »

Bicycle Bill wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:43 am

Whether or not Huber was a domestic abuser or Rosenbaum a pederast has no bearing on the case.
I never said it did...but it makes them scumbags. Rosenbaum should never have gotten out of prison.
There is no way in hell that the teen-aged tough-guy wanna-be could have known any of this, so this particular bit of past history concerning the two victims is completely and totally irrelevant.  The fact remains that an underaged Rittenhouse crossed state lines as an outside agitator to posture with a deadly weapon under the guise of protecting property in a municipality that was not his own.
Every word of that is wrong. Most of his family is in Kenosha (all except his mother), he worked in Kenosha...and while he "crossed state lines" (who gives a shit?), it's only about half an hour drive from his mother's house to Kenosha.
   He had no business being in Kenosha under those conditions, and if he had stayed home in Antioch both Huber and Rosenbaum would (more likely than not) still be alive.

And just in passing, I would love to have access to your history, going back over your lifetime, to see what peccadilloes YOU might have committed or what skeletons are hiding in YOUR closet.  Maybe you have a citation for underage drinking, or there is evidence that you might have smoked marijuana back in the day?  From there, it's a short step for someone to label YOU as an alcoholic or a drug addict and, by definition, a scumbag yourself.
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I have no idea how you made that leap, from domestic abuse and pederasty to...smoking pot? Do you?

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Re: Judges have way too much power

Post by Bicycle Bill »

Jarlaxle wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:22 am
Bicycle Bill wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:43 am
Whether or not Huber was a domestic abuser or Rosenbaum a pederast has no bearing on the case.
I never said it did...but it makes them scumbags. Rosenbaum should never have gotten out of prison.
Then why even bring it up?   And as for getting out of prison, I don't agree that every person who gets released should have been either.  But again, that's neither here nor there.
Jarlaxle wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:22 am
There is no way in hell that the teen-aged tough-guy wanna-be could have known any of this, so this particular bit of past history concerning the two victims is completely and totally irrelevant.  The fact remains that an underaged Rittenhouse crossed state lines as an outside agitator to posture with a deadly weapon under the guise of protecting property in a municipality that was not his own.
Every word of that is wrong. Most of his family is in Kenosha (all except his mother), he worked in Kenosha...and while he "crossed state lines" (who gives a shit?), it's only about half an hour drive from his mother's house to Kenosha.
So maybe he does have connections to Kenosha.  But his residence is Antioch, Illinois now... and I'm sure when he went to Kenosha he was driving under an Illinois license in a vehicle with Illinois plates on it ... and once the shit hit the fan, he scurried right back across the border — and fought like a MFer over even being extradited back to Kenosha in the first place.
And since when does 'how long it took to get there' have anything to do with things, either?
Jarlaxle wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:22 am
And just in passing, I would love to have access to your history, going back over your lifetime, to see what peccadilloes YOU might have committed or what skeletons are hiding in YOUR closet.  Maybe you have a citation for underage drinking, or there is evidence that you might have smoked marijuana back in the day?  From there, it's a short step for someone to label YOU as an alcoholic or a drug addict and, by definition, a scumbag yourself.
I have no idea how you made that leap, from domestic abuse and pederasty to...smoking pot? Do you?
Yeah, it's a bit of a leap all right, but I wasn't comparing domestic abuse or pederasty to smoking pot.  I was pointing out that to some people, something as innocuous as smoking weed is still drug abuse, and anyone who abuses drugs of any kind are, to their way of thinking, scumbags.
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Re: Judges have way too much power

Post by Econoline »

If the protests in Kenosha were so violent, how come Kyle Rittenhouse's victims—yes, victims— were the *ONLY* ones shot, and the *ONLY* ones killed? :loon :arg
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Re: Judges have way too much power

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...it is one thing for conservatives to say the jury reached the legally correct verdict and another thing entirely to describe Rittenhouse as a moral exemplar: a gun-toting American standing guard against the country’s internal enemies.

“By suggesting he is a hero,” Mason tells me, “the implication is that what he did was not a tragedy at all. It wasn’t a conflict gone lethally wrong, it was a good lethal conflict.”

A bloody turn in this deeply polarized moment for American democracy need not be inevitable. But the Rittenhouse case has revealed a scary convergence between the fringe and the mainstream on the wisdom of turning guns against their political enemies. Its resolution validates that belief in ways that challenge the basic nonviolent compact at the heart of democratic political life.
(source; read the whole article)
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Re: Judges have way too much power

Post by Gob »

Kyle Rittenhouse is not a hero.

He's an idiot
.

A deluded, naïve, dumb 17-year-old teenage kid with aspirations to be a wannabee Rambo.


The fact he was able to arm himself with a semi-automatic AR-15 rifle is yet another example of the insanity of America's gun laws, or lack of them.

But there is no doubting that he was legally able to do so.

Just as he was legally permitted to defend himself with the gun when he came under attack from Black Lives Matter protesters in Kenosha, Wisconsin.

That's why he walked free from court last Friday, and why the verdicts were the correct ones if you bother to study Wisconsin's unambiguous self-defense laws.

You might not agree with those laws, just as I don't agree with Rittenhouse being able to carry such a weapon of war (Wisconsin state allows minors to possess shotguns and rifles so long as they're not short-barreled) when he's too young to buy a beer in the same state - but you can't deny they are the laws.


So, the jury found in his favor on all counts, and they are to be applauded for doing their jobs properly and remaining detached from the howling hyper-partisan shrieking from both sides of the court of public opinion.

As USA Today said: 'The American jury is designed to stand between the mob and a defendant; between the government and the accused. The thin line of a dozen citizens can prove the most unassailable wall for justice in our system.'

However, Rittenhouse's deadly antics were not the only incredibly dangerous and dumb actions perpetrated in this depressing saga.

President Joe Biden, then a presidential candidate, instantly branded Rittenhouse a 'white supremacist' in the aftermath of the August 2020 shootings, and even used his photo in a tweet to do so. He also demanded to know why then President Trump did not 'disavow white supremacists' like Rittenhouse.

MSNBC anchor Joy Reid, the biggest race-baiting host on US cable news, posted a TikTok video attacking Rittenhouse's 'male, white tears', that's been viewed over a million times. Any white host who'd done that about a black man on trial would have been instantly cancelled.

Another MSNBC host, Tiffany Cross, called for the removal of the judge because he was supposedly too biased to conservatives, despite his appointment being made by Democrats.

The narrative from much of the liberal-dominated mainstream media was ridiculously one-sided from the start, encouraged no doubt by Biden's recklessly prejudiced intervention.

Both CNN and MSNBC asserted that Rittenhouse was driven across state lines by his mother to help police combat the violent protests in an area many miles from his own home, with which he had no connection.

That, we discovered, was all entirely false.

In fact, he stayed overnight with his friend in Kenosha the night before the riots after working at a sports center, and it is where his father, grandmother, aunt, uncle and cousins all live.

In one of the more egregiously inaccurate statements the day after the shooting, Democratic congresswoman Ayanna Pressley tweeted: 'A 17 year old white supremacist domestic terrorist drove across state lines, armed with an AR 15. He shot and killed 2 people who had assembled to affirm the value, dignity, and worth of Black lives. Fix your damn headlines.'

Pressley's colleague, Democratic congresswoman Cori Bush, tweeted: 'When we marched in Ferguson, white supremacists would hide behind a hill near where Michael Brown Jr. was murdered and shoot at us. They never faced consequences. If Kyle Rittenhouse gets acquitted, it tells them that even 7 years later they still can get away with it.'

Even Ferguson's Police Chief Frank McCall Jr later said he had no idea what she was talking about.

After the verdict, Bush tweeted: 'The judge. The Jury. The defendant. It's white supremacy in action. The system isn't built to be held accountable. It's why Black and brown folks are brutalized and put in cages while white supremacist murderers walk free. I'm hurt. I'm angry. I'm heartbroken.'

She's also completely wrong.

This case had nothing to do with white supremacy, as she may well discover the hard way if Rittenhouse now decides to sue all those who called him a racist murderer.

Rittenhouse's acquittal should have been a moment of reflective pause for those who wrongly slurred him.

Instead, they all raced to further fan the racial flames.

President Biden, on his return from a colonoscopy, initially supported the decision, saying: 'Look, I stand by what the jury has concluded.'

But then later in the day, he changed his mind, saying the verdict 'will leave many Americans feeling angry and concerned, myself included.'

In other words, he didn't agree with it at all.

Nor did he offer any apology to Rittenhouse for calling him a white supremacist.

New York's virtue-signaling Mayor Bill de Blasio called the Rittenhouse decision 'disgusting and it sends a horrible message to this country.'

But what is that horrible message, exactly?

That the law of the land should be strictly observed?

NFL star Colin Kaepernick, who began the take-a-knee movement in protest at racial injustice, tweeted: 'We just witnessed a system built on white supremacy validate the terrorist acts of a white supremacist.'

What errant, incendiary claptrap.

As I said at the start of this column, Kyle Rittenhouse is no hero, and shouldn't be treated as such.
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Re: Judges have way too much power

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Econoline wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:55 am
If the protests in Kenosha were so violent, how come Kyle Rittenhouse's victims—yes, victims— were the *ONLY* ones shot, and the *ONLY* ones killed? :loon :arg
Because the lily-livered left doesn't like police shooting rioters, as long as said rioters are only trashing buildings, looting and destroying "stuff".

The three attackers who got shot were the only rioters dumb enough to attack an armed asshole
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Re: Judges have way too much power

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Nobody has the stones to deal with rioters who loot and pillage and burn correctly.

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Re: Judges have way too much power

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

Gob wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:27 am
Kyle Rittenhouse is not a hero.

He's an idiot
.

A deluded, naïve, dumb 17-year-old teenage kid with aspirations to be a wannabee Rambo.


The fact he was able to arm himself with a semi-automatic AR-15 rifle is yet another example of the insanity of America's gun laws, or lack of them.

But there is no doubting that he was legally able to do so.
So far so good. And undoubtedly there is a major gap in the laws of Wisconsin (and elsewhere?) if taking a BFG (big fucking gun) for a walk because "I thought it looked cool, if that's a reason" (actual quote when asked why he bought the AR-15) and being surprised when someone feels that you are a menace to society and bravely tries to dissuade you from gunning people down by disarming you, and then you kill them - if that's OK? Just out of curiosity, if I am shitfaced drunk and I try to get into my car to drive home and my friend takes my car keys away, can I kill him because he tried to deprive me of my property? Or is that only in Wisconsin?

This "I thought he was going to kill me" defense is way past its sell by date. If that belief is unreasonable - and Rittenhouse had NO evidence that any of his victims were trying to kill him (in no parallel universe is a skateboard a deadly weapon) (I have a ballpoint pen and a pepper pot in front of me as I write this - be assured that I could kill you with them if I chose and I could probably manage it without the pepper pot but it would hurt [me]) - then it's murder. Or at best unlawful killing - same as if I kill someone driving drunk. I did not get into the car with the intention of killing someone, but my actions and my actions alone led to that death.

There are Republicans lining up to offer him an internship at Congress. In fact they are already talking about an arm wrestling contest to see who gets first dibs. Paul Goser and Matt Goetz BTW.

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Re: Judges have way too much power

Post by Big RR »

This "I thought he was going to kill me" defense is way past its sell by date. If that belief is unreasonable - and Rittenhouse had NO evidence that any of his victims were trying to kill him (in no parallel universe is a skateboard a deadly weapon) (I have a ballpoint pen and a pepper pot in front of me as I write this - be assured that I could kill you with them if I chose and I could probably manage it without the pepper pot but it would hurt [me]) - then it's murder. Or at best unlawful killing
Perhaps, but a group of angry people could easily kill someone even without a weapon, and that is what I think the jury took into account (no te mention that one person did brandish a pistol). I agree the law is outmoded, but then we have to be very careful what we put in its place. Our history is full of examples where people travel from out of state to protect the rights of others, some without weapons (like the freedom riders, e.g.), others with weapons (like those who helped protect black parts of town from being burned by white "vigilantes" or to prevent lynchings). I'm not sure what the answer is, but we do have to protect such actions.

I find this verdict disquieting, but also somewhat unexpected. I am concerned it will pave the way for racist assholes to become armed vigilantes (maybe even provoking the riots by their very presence), but I also do think that we also have an obligation to defend our neighbors in some circumstances. Any new laws have to balance these interests.

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Re: Judges have way too much power

Post by Sue U »

Big RR wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:14 pm
I find this verdict disquieting, but also somewhat unexpected. I am concerned it will pave the way for racist assholes to become armed vigilantes (maybe even provoking the riots by their very presence), but I also do think that we also have an obligation to defend our neighbors in some circumstances. Any new laws have to balance these interests.
Here's an idea: How about we ban the manufacture and sale of military-style weapons for civilian use? How about we require a license, registration and certification of actual safety training before allowing someone to purchase a firearm? HOW ABOUT PEOPLE STOP ACTING LIKE ANYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH THEM ON SOCIAL ISSUES IS THE GODDAMN ENEMY SEEKING THEIR ANNIHILATION?
GAH!

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Re: Judges have way too much power

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Sue U wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:38 pm
HOW ABOUT PEOPLE STOP ACTING LIKE ANYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH THEM ON SOCIAL ISSUES IS THE GODDAMN ENEMY SEEKING THEIR ANNIHILATION?
I have no hope to see that trend reverse. I’m fairly certain we are heading for a conflagration.
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Re: Judges have way too much power

Post by Big RR »

Sue--[/quote]
Here's an idea: How about we ban the manufacture and sale of military-style weapons for civilian use? How about we require a license, registration and certification of actual safety training before allowing someone to purchase a firearm? HOW ABOUT PEOPLE STOP ACTING LIKE ANYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH THEM ON SOCIAL ISSUES IS THE GODDAMN ENEMY SEEKING THEIR ANNIHILATION?
[/quote]


I agree with you on all of the above except for the ban on military style weapons; I would think any semi automatic rifle could pretty much do the same thing as an AK 47 or something else that looks "military" (if this is not the case, I'd be happy to learn why, but I think it is). I would also tighten up the requirements for the right to carry a weapon, open or concealed, and require further training to get that permit.

As for your last point, I hope that BSG is wrong, but I don't think she is.

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Re: Judges have way too much power

Post by Jarlaxle »

Sue U wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:38 pm
Big RR wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:14 pm
I find this verdict disquieting, but also somewhat unexpected. I am concerned it will pave the way for racist assholes to become armed vigilantes (maybe even provoking the riots by their very presence), but I also do think that we also have an obligation to defend our neighbors in some circumstances. Any new laws have to balance these interests.
Here's an idea: How about we ban the manufacture and sale of military-style weapons for civilian use? How about we require a license, registration and certification of actual safety training before allowing someone to purchase a firearm? HOW ABOUT PEOPLE STOP ACTING LIKE ANYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH THEM ON SOCIAL ISSUES IS THE GODDAMN ENEMY SEEKING THEIR ANNIHILATION?
Explain, in your own words, what a "military style weapon" is.

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Re: Judges have way too much power

Post by Bicycle Bill »

Jarlaxle wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:24 pm
Explain, in your own words, what a "military style weapon" is.
Point taken.   It's like the age-old quandary of defining pornography, with the standard response being something like, "I can't describe it, but I know it when I see it."   The M-1 Garand (and its successor, the M-14) looks nothing at all like an AR-15, but was the U.S. military's weapon of issue for how many years?

The problem lies in the fact that both the iconic M-16 of Vietnam or its European counterpart, the AK-47, ARE in fact military weapons capable of fully-automatic fire, and the semi-automatic AR-15 bears a superficial resemblance to them.  However, if you take this same semi-automatic AR-15 and add an extended 'banana clip' magazine and a 'bump stock', you now have a weapon that is capable of delivering up to 100 rounds downrange at *ALMOST* automatic rate-of-fire speeds.   That's what makes the average person consider anything that looks like an AR-15 to be a 'military-style' weapon.

There's also the fear that, even if people KNOW the AR-15 is not designed to be fully automatic, they believe that someone with proper gunsmithing skills — or access to the appropriate parts from an M-16 — could quickly modify them to become fully automatic.

It's like the ''rice-boy" fad of the 'aero' rear wings and over-sized exhaust pipes on the Honda Civics of about fifteen - twenty years ago.   Didn't really make them go any faster or handle any better, but to some people, it was all about the looks ... and baby, to them they looked cool as hell...
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