School's out (yet again.)

[Sue U]

Yes, the law provides (or should provide) some "safety valves", but if we're going to hold parents responsible for the actions of their children, our mental health system has to catch up with this.

Let's be clear: No one is holding parents responsible for the actions of their children. In this case, they are being held responsible for their own actions in allowing their (presumably disturbed) child unsupervised access to a handgun. I do not know the Michigan criminal code, but if that kind of act is a violation in itself and/or makes one an accessory to or otherwise complicit in the subsequent crime, then they are absolutely being properly held to account for their own actions. On the civil side, there is more than enough here for a negligence case against the parents.

[Big RR]

In this case you are correct, sue; but based on some of the ocmments in this thread, some would be happy to hold the parents responsible for neglect and bad choices. I do think there is a not uncommon belief that parents should be held responsible, civilly and criminally, for the actions of their children. I am not entirely against this, but there does have to be some protection for the parents who have mentally ill chilc, maybe one who does not take his/her meds or a serious drug addict. Sure, if it is limited in giving hm/her access to firearms it makes sense, but what if (s)he takes the family care and ploughs it into a crowd; or maybe takes some large kitchen knives (or an axe or a chainsaw) and commits mayhem with that? It's a tough call to se when they should be liable or not, but public reaction usually just places the blame on the parents. I have had clients who could not get their adolescent child the mental healthcare they need, because the child refuses, but yet people want to hold them liable, and I think there has to be some protection for people like them.

In the instant case, it appears that these people were the poster children for bad parents, but it's not always that clear.

[Gob]

Oh and not a lawyer and haven’t looked it up but I believe it would be legal for a 14 year old to own a hunting rifle but not a handgun.

Thanks for my chuckle of the day. Sheer lunacy.

[BoSoxGal]

Oh and not a lawyer and haven’t looked it up but I believe it would be legal for a 14 year old to own a hunting rifle but not a handgun.

Thanks for my chuckle of the day. Sheer lunacy.

In Great Britain people under 14 years of age may not possess a Section 1 firearm or ammunition. However, between the ages of 14 and 17 a young person may possess and use a Section 1 firearm and ammunition provided they hold a valid firearms certificate for that firearm. They must, of course, comply with any condition on the certificate, but if it does not require them to be accompanied while shooting then they may shoot by themselves.https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/answers/fi ... limit-6574

In Australia it varies by state/territory, but kids 12 and even younger are allowed to use/possess firearms. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-05-04/ ... ia/8498000

What exactly are you scoffing about?

[BoSoxGal]

Some good thoughts on Americans & guns:



I like the idea of banning open carry nationwide. It’s insanity in the current political climate to let all the little Kyles run around with their guns.

[Crackpot]

https://www.mlive.com/news/2022/02/pare ... 8vDjRwosec

Sorry can’t copy text

These parents really suck

The cynic in me wonders if this is an opportune excuse to shift culpability

[BoSoxGal]

These parents really suck

The cynic in me wonders if this is an opportune excuse to shift culpability

It’s probably easier to be cynical if you’ve had a normal family life experience growing up, with parents who functioned in the range of normalcy that most people think of when they think of healthy parenting.

People who grow up with parents who function somewhere on the unhealthy end of the narcissistic personality traits spectrum, up to and including narcissistic personality disorder, have a very different frame of reference and have no trouble whatsoever believing this kid was ignored and emotionally neglected by his parents to the point that he was developing severe mental health issues right under their noses, with an abundance of evidence available to them if they’d bothered looking, and they just did not care. He asked them for help and was scoffed at!

Normal healthy parents respond to a school counselor telling them their son is in crisis and should be seen within 48 hours by taking their son away from school and to the ER, if a private counselor isn’t immediately available. Normal healthy parents don’t blow it off because both of them have to go back to work so badly - there is no evidence in the record that either of the Crumbleys faced the loss of a job if they’d taken the afternoon off to care for their kid. There is a lot of evidence in the record that the Crumbleys behaved like narcissists in the face of their son’s actions, essentially abandoning him to the system while attempting to run away themselves and then putting all their resources into their own defense and none into their sons. They have behaved so grossly inappropriately in court hearings, making lovey dovey faces and gestures at one another with total disregard for the decorum of the court nevermind the feelings of the victims families in attendance that the state was compelled to ask the court to threaten sanctions on that behavior unless it was stopped.

Ethan Crumbley committed a horrific crime that needlessly ended the lives of a bunch of innocent kids. But he’s a victim too. There is no question in my mind that he suffers from mental illness though not likely rising to the level of a mental defect defense because that bar is now set so high in our system. He is, sadly like too many kids, the unwelcome byproduct of sexual relations that his ‘parents’ had to tolerate, feed clothe and house much to their chagrin. He was treated, as most such kids are, as an accessory possession owned by his ‘parents,’ sometimes fun to play with but mostly just an unwanted burden. Their emotional neglect of him was most definitely a contributing factor to the mass murder he perpetrated. I continue to laud the prosecutor who had the guts to charge them and I hope a jury (or two) finds them guilty and they are sent away to consider the consequences of their extreme selfishness. However since narcissists are never wrong, I doubt very much they’ll get the connection.

[Gob]

A man shot and killed his three daughters and a chaperone before turning the gun on himself at a church in the Sacramento, California, suburbs on Monday, authorities said.

Deputies had been called to the church in the Arden-Arcade neighborhood of Sacramento on Monday evening after a church employee heard gunshots and called 911, said Sgt Rod Grassmann with the Sacramento county sheriff’s office.

The deputies found five people dead, Grassmann said, including the gunman and three girls ages nine, 10 and 13. . The shooting had occurred in the main sanctuary area, he said.

Later on Monday evening, the Sacramento county sheriff, Scott Jones, said investigators believe that the shooter had been estranged from the children’s mother, who had a restraining order against him.

Investigators believe the shooting happened during a supervised visit with the children, Jones added. The fourth victim, an adult, was the chaperone. The shooter’s identity wasn’t immediately released.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... among-dead

[BoSoxGal]

I think that falls into the category of highly narcissistic parenting, too.

[Crackpot]

I’m not saying it isn’t true, but, it’s probably the only argument that could get him any sympathy/ mitigating factors.

If I was going real cynical I would say it’s the best possible defense for the kid as well as point out that even if this defense works it will probably not blowback on the parents too hard/ negativity effect thier trial(s) as it will end up amounting to a bunch of finger pointing

I really do think those parents should receive the Augusta Wilhelmine Gein parenting award.

[Burning Petard]

This Monday night church activity reminds me of a question the instructor asked in one of my theology classes:

What is your view of 'God the Father' if your earthly father was a rotten SOB who got drunk and beat his wife and kids every Saturday night?

Pondering that question was why I tried to never criticize RayThom for his views on religion.

snailgate

[BoSoxGal]

This Monday night church activity reminds me of a question the instructor asked in one of my theology classes:

What is your view of 'God the Father' if your earthly father was a rotten SOB who got drunk and beat his wife and kids every Saturday night?

Pondering that question was why I tried to never criticize RayThom for his views on religion.

snailgate

Yup; except most who are like that don’t confine the violence and cruelty to one night a week.

[Bicycle Bill]

For fuck's sake, the woman had a restraining order on this asshole, which (according to what I read) meant he wasn't supposed to be in possession of a firearm.  Tragically, it didn't stop this shithead — he went through that restraining order like a tornado through a trailer park.  Maybe they should have amputated his trigger fingers instead.

At least he had the courtesy (?) to turn the gun on himself as his last act, saving the taxpayers and extended family members from having to go through the bullshit of a trial, arguments about mental stability, and finally confining him to a mental hospital for God-only-knows how long — and from which he could, in all probability, be released in twenty years or so.

Now, I know the Constitution says we 'Mericans have the right to bear arms, just like we have the right to travel freely (the Privileges and Immunities Clause of the United States Constitution which states, "The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States."  Since the circuit court ruling in Corfield v. Coryell, 6 Fed. Cas. 546 (1823), freedom of movement has been judicially recognized as a fundamental Constitutional right) — but even the more vocal of these Second Amendment ammosexuals don't seem to see anything wrong in requiring someone to register their jacked-up, turbocharged, chrome-laden, oversized, four-wheel drive phallic substitutes to be registered, or to have to be trained and tested in order to hold a permit to drive said motor vehicle (see Hendrick v. Maryland (1915), in which the appellant asked the court to void Maryland's motor vehicle statute as a violation of the freedom of movement.  The court found "no solid foundation" for the appellant's argument and unanimously held that "in the absence of national legislation covering the subject, a state may rightfully prescribe uniform regulations necessary for public safety and order in respect to the operation upon its highways of all motor vehicles") — with even more restrictive testing and requirements to be able to drive even more powerful vehicles (CDL licensing with special focus depending on the vehicle's equipment — air brakes, for example — and type of load being carried in order to drive 18-wheel semis, for instance).

So why In the name of Jesus Christ, Buddha, Allah, Gaia, Confucius, the Dalai Lama, Shiva, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, the Gitchee Manitou, or whatever other deity you wish to name can't we finally do something similar to restrict access to all these goddammed guns???

-"BB"-

[Jarlaxle]

In other news, restraining orders are worthless. This is, of course, not news.

[BoSoxGal]

Men with restraining orders against them kill their ex lovers/spouses, and their children, all the time.

One of the most awful cases I worked as a domestic violence advocate was with a woman here in Massachusetts named Dorothy Giunta-Cotter. I worked with her when she sought shelter in Maine but she was denied an order there because of the custody issue of her 12 year old daughter- I often wonder if that judge even knows he set the stage for her savage murder, which took place in front of that daughter just a few weeks later. I believe she was entitled to an order in Maine under the emergency custody provisions, but the judge denied her just the same. Anyway she returned to Massachusetts, worked with a DV project here, got a restraining order and temporary custody of her daughter and right to the family home. He showed up with a double barreled shotgun one day, blew her away and then himself. I still think about her, and her daughters, all the time. Her story here, for anyone who cares: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013 ... d-hand/amp

Our country has made a lot of progress on domestic violence in my lifetime, but it’s also been very little progress at the same time. Stories like this happen all the damn time.

[Jarlaxle]

That's the main reason my wife got certified as a firearms instructor.

[BoSoxGal]

Jennifer Crumbley was just found guilty on four counts of involuntary manslaughter for failing to get her son mental health treatment and providing him a firearm to boot. Over the course of the trial testimony it came to light that she had prioritized hooking up with her side piece and arranging various sexual liaisons with him over being a mother to her son, including on the day that the school asked her to take him home and she and her husband both refused.

She faces 15 years on each count. She boo hooed in her testimony about how she lost everything because of this incident - she actually said that in a courtroom where the mothers and fathers of the kids her son killed were sitting and listening.

Frankly I hope this is the start of a trend. There are so many shit neglectful narcissistic parents who ruin their kids lives and that ruin spills over into the world. They should be accountable criminally whenever possible. Kudos to this gutsy Michigan prosecutor for making this leap.

[Crackpot]

I am hoping some of my usual resources for legal analysis do a breakdown of this case.