Page 1 of 1

He Knows Too Little to be Commenting....

Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:55 am
by Joe Guy
Peter Dinklage criticises Disney for ‘backwards’ remake of Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs

Game of Thrones actor Peter Dinklage has taken aim at Disney for what he called its “fucking backwards” forthcoming live action adaptation of Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs.

Dinklage, who stars in Joe Wright’s new film, Cyrano, accused the studio of double standards by attending to racial diversity in its cast but falling back on other damaging stereotypes.

“I was a little taken aback by [the fact] they were very proud to cast a Latina actress as Snow White,” Dinklage told podcaster Marc Maron, “but you’re still telling the story of Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs”.

Dinklage, who has a form of dwarfism called achondroplasia, continued by saying Disney should have stepped back and reassessed the project.

“You’re progressive in one way but you’re still making that fucking backward story of seven dwarves living in the cave. (they lived in a cottage) What the fuck are you doing, man? Have I done nothing to advance the cause from my soapbox? I guess I’m not loud enough.

“They were so proud of that, and all love and respect to the actress and the people who thought they were doing the right thing but I’m just like, ‘What are you doing?’”

Dinklage added that had a “cool, progressive spin” been put on the fairytale, he would have been “all in”.

Disney has since responded in a statement. “To avoid reinforcing stereotypes from the original animated film, we are taking a different approach with these seven characters and have been consulting with members of the dwarfism community. We look forward to sharing more as the film heads into production after a lengthy development period.”

The remake stars Rachel Zegler, fresh from her acclaimed debut in West Side Story, with Gal Gadot as the Evil Queen. Directed by Marc Webb, the film is said to be an adaptation and an extension of the 1937 Disney animated classic – itself taken from a Brothers Grimm story.

An updated version, Snow White and the Huntsman, starring Kristen Stewart, met with a backlash on release a decade ago after the dwarves were played by actors of average height – including Bob Hoskins and Ian McShane – whose faces were digitally transmuted on to small bodies.

The actor Danny Woodburn likened this technique to “blackface”, while the LA dwarf theatre group Beacher’s Madhouse threatened a “100-midget march” to the offices of distributors Universal in protest against “injustice and prejudice”.

Aside from central roles, casting on the new Disney film, including that of the dwarves, has not yet been announced.
source

What are the folks at Disney thinking? Don't they realize that any remake of the movie should be called "Snow Blanco and the Seven Average Sized and Demographically Accurate Racial Representation of the Geographical Location in the Specific Historical Time Period Being Portrayed"?

Re: He Knows Too Little to be Commenting....

Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:45 am
by BoSoxGal
Here’s the comment I posted to the New York Times Facebook page about this story:
A girl who is beautiful because her skin is ‘WHITE as snow,’ who is persecuted by an evil STEPMOTHER, runs away to the forest where she is taken in by seven dwarves who are stereotypes mostly of low intelligence and questionable character, and who is ultimately rescued not by her own wits or strength, but of course by a charming Prince.

Yes this story from the 1800s is full of crap and nothing we should be shoveling into the minds of our little girls and boys. Please Disney, with all the stories in the world can you just stop with the sexist ableist misogynistic princess/prince CRAP?! It is long past time to do away with the whole concept of monarchy anyway, NOBODY is better just by virtue of an accident of birth if we didn’t already know that we have the pedophile Prince Andrew to put the kibosh on the notion once and for all.

And girls/women don’t need boys/men to rescue them - whether those men are short or tall. Nor should boys/men be raised to think girls/women need rescuing; they should be raised to appreciate strong minded capable girls/women who are their equals.

Peter Dinklage is a fantastic actor who proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that people with dwarfism are just regular people with shorter limbs etc. Long past time we stopped lauding entertainment that makes light of physical or mental differences.

Re: He Knows Too Little to be Commenting....

Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:54 am
by Bicycle Bill
Going back to the origin of the story, does anyone remember why the young female was called "Snow White" and not "Caramel Brown" in the first place?
Once upon a time in midwinter, when the snowflakes were falling like feathers from heaven, a queen sat sewing at her window, which had a frame of black ebony wood. As she sewed she looked up at the snow and pricked her finger with her needle. Three drops of blood fell into the snow. The red on the white looked so beautiful that she thought to herself, "If only I had a child as white as snow, as red as blood, and as black as the wood in this frame."

Soon afterward she had a little daughter whose skin was as white as snow, her lips as red as blood, and her hair as black as ebony wood, and therefore they called her Little Snow-White.
'Nuff said, all you woke, lit, inclusive-to-a-fault meddling motherfuckers.  Leave well enough alone.
Image
-"BB"-

Re: He Knows Too Little to be Commenting....

Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:11 am
by Joe Guy
I don't see any problem with the movie being remade with humans. It's a fairy tale. An imaginary story. Nobody is forcing anyone to go and watch it. Let the market decide whether or not it succeeds.

As an aside, I saw the movie "Cruella" a couple months ago and I thought it was a great movie.

Re: He Knows Too Little to be Commenting....

Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:14 am
by MajGenl.Meade
Who speaks for the Orcs? Does no-one care about goblins? Should we ask Oin, Gloin, Bifur, Bombur and the gang how they feel about being dissed?

It may not be nice to refer to people with his kind of condition as "dwarves". (Even Gimli made a proforma objection to being tossed wink wink). Dinklage knows that the creatures from ancient legend were not named after people like him. The reverse is true.

I suppose homosexicans are going to be up in arms about fairy stories next :lol:

Re: He Knows Too Little to be Commenting....

Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 12:28 am
by Bicycle Bill
BoSoxGal wrote:
Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:45 am
Here’s the comment I posted to the New York Times Facebook page about this story:
A girl who is beautiful because her skin is ‘WHITE as snow,’ who is persecuted by an evil STEPMOTHER, runs away to the forest where she is taken in by seven dwarves who are stereotypes mostly of low intelligence and questionable character, and who is ultimately rescued not by her own wits or strength, but of course by a charming Prince.

Yes this story from the 1800s is full of crap and nothing we should be shoveling into the minds of our little girls and boys. Please Disney, with all the stories in the world can you just stop with the sexist ableist misogynistic princess/prince CRAP?! It is long past time to do away with the whole concept of monarchy anyway, NOBODY is better just by virtue of an accident of birth if we didn’t already know that we have the pedophile Prince Andrew to put the kibosh on the notion once and for all.

And girls/women don’t need boys/men to rescue them - whether those men are short or tall. Nor should boys/men be raised to think girls/women need rescuing; they should be raised to appreciate strong minded capable girls/women who are their equals.

Peter Dinklage is a fantastic actor who proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that people with dwarfism are just regular people with shorter limbs etc. Long past time we stopped lauding entertainment that makes light of physical or mental differences.
There are those who are silent, and are thought to be fools.
And then there are those who speak and remove all doubt.
Image
It's time to change your avatar, Aunt Millie.
Image
-"BB"-

Re: He Knows Too Little to be Commenting....

Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:30 pm
by Big RR
who is persecuted by an evil STEPMOTHER, runs away to the forest
To be fair, she is sent by the evil stepmother (and this woman is the epitome of comic book evil) to be killed by one of her henchmen; he is instructed to kill her and bring back her heart. However, his little bit of goodness prevailed; he left her in the forest and returned to the stepmother with the story of Snow White's death and the heart of a pig.
Also, she makes a home with the dwarves/little men and is welcomed by them because of her personality and ability to work hard, cleaning and cooking for them (unlike many royals who couldn't lift a finger); they also fight with an defeat the stepmother after she is poisoned by her. . Yes, the prince ultimately"rescues" her, but in reality she is not awakened by him but the kiss of true love love, a very common theme among literature of that time.

Do you really want the story to be rewritten and updated from the classic version. Look at the updates of fairly tales and classic literature (remember Demi Moore in the updated Scarlett Letter?). Disney has done its to sanitize (really ruin) a lot of stories after its first couple of movies--look at The Little Mermaid, Alice in Wonderland, the Hunchback of Notre Dame, ...; I can't see why they should ruin more classic stories. Just come up with another story of a girl who is lost and finds herself and leave Snow White alone; it's not set in this millennium, nor should it be IMHO.

Re: He Knows Too Little to be Commenting....

Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:33 pm
by liberty
Joe Guy wrote:
Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:11 am
I don't see any problem with the movie being remade with humans. It's a fairy tale. An imaginary story. Nobody is forcing anyone to go and watch it. Let the market decide whether or not it succeeds.

As an aside, I saw the movie "Cruella" a couple months ago and I thought it was a great movie.
Wouldn’t that be cultural appropriation, or can European albinos have their culture appropriated? For the record, I don’t believe whites or Caucasians are albinos; I am just repeating what I have read on other forums until I read that I never thought of the word albino as an insult, just an unfortunate condition.

Re: He Knows Too Little to be Commenting....

Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:57 pm
by BoSoxGal
No I don’t want the story updated or altered BigRR, I want it to remain a 1930s classic and for Disney not to remake it at all. There are so many better stories to tell.

I’m well aware of the facts involved in the story of Snow White - my point was that the story perpetuates disgusting stereotypes including the stereotype that stepmothers are evil people. In a time when so very many children have stepparents I don’t see how this is at all an acceptable stereotype to perpetuate to children. Yes some stepparents are terrible but some parents are terrible too. The point is that a story that makes a stepmother out to be an evil murderous villain is going to make a lot of young kids sick with fear when their parents split and dad remarries.

Please tell me what it is in the story of Snow White that you find redeeming? What values incorporated in the story are really worth inculcating in today's children in today's culture? White skinned women are the most beautiful? Nope. Little people are laughable? Nope. Girls and women are either helpless beauties or evil nefarious uglies? Nope. Helpless beautiful girls need men to rescue them? NOPE!

I just don’t see the merit.

Re: He Knows Too Little to be Commenting....

Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:31 am
by Big RR
Please tell me what it is in the story of Snow White that you find redeeming? What values incorporated in the story are really worth inculcating in today's children in today's culture?
Well, since you asked, Snow White was a young girl whose mother died, and who has a witch of a stepmother and a jellyfish of a father who bowed to the stepmother's every demand, who still kept a kind and hopeful outlook; someone who could charm men of questionable backgrounds (miners who lived apart from everyone else) by her outlook and her willingness to work hard cleaning their home, preparing meals, and sharing their common fate. I'm not going to defend the story, it's old and of a different time, but there are things to be learned from it. But at its base it's a fairy tale dealing with the ears of every child (being abandoned and left to the whims of a selfish bastard), but she showed one could still create a life for oneself by being true and loving and working hard--even find true love (which is the middle age ideal).

The point is, I do think that's a lesson worth considering; sure there are a lot of bad lessons (white is better than dark, short men are sketchy), but it is also true when it shows that children are the pawns of adults, and can be treated horribly by "evil" (really, comic book evil) people, which is true. Personally, I think it is primarily an indictment of her father, who is pretty much worthless, than the stepmother, and that is something fathers could learn from. Indeed, IMHO he is far worse than the stepmother.

But , sure, there are better stories to tell, just as there are better stories than Aesop's fables or Greek/Roman/Norse mythology. I just saw a play on Broadway this weekend, Hadestown, a musical based on the Orpheus/Eurydice myth where it ended the same way it always does, but then the writers put a different spin on it saying "we'll tell it again and again and one day the result may be different". It's a bit trite, but people can learn and improve.

Re: He Knows Too Little to be Commenting....

Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 1:31 am
by Joe Guy
I just want to throw in my usual complaint that I'm tired of people looking for things (in this case, in movies) that offend them and then demanding things be changed. In this case, the movie hasn't even been made yet! Just don't go and pay to see it if you think you or a race or dwarf will be injured by it or your children will become mentally unstable if they see it.

Maybe people today will feel better if they make an "Ozzie and Harriet" movie in which every race lives on one block and they all get along and the worst thing that ever happens is Harriet pulls her front window shades and they go up instead of down.

Or they make a Bonanza movie and Little Joe is black, Hoss is a Japanese sumo wrestler, Adam is an American Native and Ben Cartwright is a bisexual old wise guy who has a boyfriend - and the Cartwright family has a white chef who is one half Hispanic and a disabled dwarf.

We've got to represent as many races and types of people of the human race in every movie, dammit! Whether it's realistic or not doesn't matter at all. Everybody needs to have the ability to preapprove and assure they will be happy with all movies that are made. It's the 21st century and people are tired of non-inclusive depictions of stories - even when the characters are in a fictional movie!

Re: He Knows Too Little to be Commenting....

Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 2:18 am
by BoSoxGal
And this is how the patriarchy churns on and on and on and on . . .


eta: For the record, I loved the story as a child. When I visited Disneyland the first time I chose a figurine of Snow White with a music box inside that played ‘Someday My Prince Will Come’ as my take away souvenir of the visit. (To be fair I really wanted the one with Jiminy Cricket singing ‘When You Wish Upon a Star’ to Pinocchio, but it was sold out when we stopped on Main Street to buy our loot as we were leaving the park after a long day of rides - fuck!)

I’ve spent the majority of my adult life recovering from the bullshit messages of fairy tales like Snow White and I know many other women experience the same. Even worse off are the women who never grasp the bullshit lies that patriarchy has drilled into their brains since infancy, the ones who torture themselves and shit on their sisters acting out of internalized misogyny their whole adult lives.

There are so many brilliant stories for children that teach healthy messages of self love and compassion for others and by which we can instill solid values in kids without corrupting their lives with patriarchal misogynistic ableist racist etc. crap. No that doesn’t mean every story has to include a token this or that, Joe’s post is absurd. But yes there are stories that we shouldn’t be telling anymore and I believe Snow White is one - it isn’t even a story of finding true love there is more solid basis for an actual loving relationship set forth in the average Harlequin romance novel than in Snow White and of course the average Harlequin romance novel is no model for how to establish a solid loving relationship with good communication skills etc.

There are plenty of beautiful and even magical stories that don’t revolve around so many ugly stereotypes and unhealthy messages. I maintain that Snow White has very little redeeming value - her kindness to woodland animals is about the only good thing in the story.

Re: He Knows Too Little to be Commenting....

Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 3:15 am
by Joe Guy
How about Godfather IV, where the current mafia don - [played by Steve Martin] decides to institute an affirmative action policy in order to modernize and create a more diverse group of criminals into its membership. The story told will be when Il Bello advertises on Craigslist that he's taking applications for minority membership to become part of the organization. It will show the many difficult issues and the dangers encountered as Il Bello goes into minority neighborhoods, gay bars and women's organizations etc. to recruit a more inclusive representation of the population into the world of organized crime that has been traditionally comprised of Sicilianos.

Eventually, Il Bello accomplishes his goal and a new Mafia movie era will go into effect, leaving open many ideas for a Godfather (Godperson) V, Godperson VI etc.

Just a thought...

Re: He Knows Too Little to be Commenting....

Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 5:29 am
by Bicycle Bill
...my point was that the story perpetuates disgusting stereotypes including the stereotype that stepmothers are evil people. In a time when so very many children have stepparents I don’t see how this is at all an acceptable stereotype to perpetuate to children. Yes some stepparents are terrible but some parents are terrible too. The point is that a story that makes a stepmother out to be an evil murderous villain is going to make a lot of young kids sick with fear when their parents split and dad remarries.

Please tell me what it is in the story of Snow White that you find redeeming? What values incorporated in the story are really worth inculcating in today's children in today's culture? White skinned women are the most beautiful? Nope. Little people are laughable? Nope. Girls and women are either helpless beauties or evil nefarious uglies? Nope. Helpless beautiful girls need men to rescue them? NOPE!
Who says "Snow White" is inculcating that white-skinned women are the most beautiful, or that little people are laughable, or that step-parents are universally loathsome, or that girls need men to rescue them?  No one, that's who, except someone like BSG who strives at every opportunity to push an off-the-wall viewpoint to the point that anything that doesn't conform to their way of thinking is subversive and must be altered so that it becomes 'acceptable' or 'relevant' or 'inclusive' — no matter how old it is or how true to the time at which it was written it may be.  What's worse, she's not the only one.

And what's worst of all it that BSG is totally unrepentant about it.  Indeed, if anyone doesn't bend over, kiss BSG's ass, and declare unswerving and unquestioned agreement with her viewpoints on a topic (ANY topic!) she will dismiss you in the most base and vulgar terms possible, or put you on '"ignore" — the cyber equivalent of putting her fingers into her ears and going "la-la-la-la-la" like a small child — so that no other information counter to her already rock-hard, set-like-cement opinions can possibly find even the remotest chance of penetration.
There are plenty of beautiful and even magical stories that don’t revolve around so many ugly stereotypes and unhealthy messages. I maintain that Snow White has very little redeeming value - her kindness to woodland animals is about the only good thing in the story.
You wanna list some of them?  I'll betcha I could do as good a hatchet-job on them as you did on 'Snow White'.
Image
-"BB"-

Re: He Knows Too Little to be Commenting....

Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 6:18 am
by MajGenl.Meade
Well, it's the Disney version she's lambasting. There's nothing wrong with the story, as such, just the asinine sugar-schmaltz version that Diz created. OK, the wicked queen/witch is SW's step-mother but that theme is found in folk-tales everywhere (as are wicked mothers and fathers and sisters and brothers).

It's quite good that the hunter could not kill little SWF and brought a deer heart home to SM instead. The dwarfs (unnamed) are kindly, self-employed and helpful, saving her life twice. And they gave her gainful employment too!

(Hmmm - her having ebony hair surely was wrong. Can you imagine any but a blonde falling for the same vendor-at-the-door trick three times?).

And the prince does not "save" her. He happens to be having his lads take her for a sort of look-at-Lenin-isn't-he-lifelike memorial (or whatever) when the casket jolts and the poisoned apple flies from her mouth. She ain't no Cinderella.

But Diz omitted the red-hot-shoe-dance-to-death which really hasn't been overdone in many entertaining children's stories.
So, fie on Diznification. Terry Pratchett knew more about kids than Disney.

Re: He Knows Too Little to be Commenting....

Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:26 am
by Gob
BoSoxGal wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 2:18 am
And this is how the patriarchy churns on and on and on and on . . .
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Re: He Knows Too Little to be Commenting....

Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 2:35 pm
by Big RR
t isn’t even a story of finding true love there is more solid basis for an actual loving relationship set forth in the average Harlequin romance novel than in Snow White and of course the average Harlequin romance novel is no model for how to establish a solid loving relationship with good communication skills etc.
It's a story, and that same criticism can be aimed at most love/romance stories from Romeo and Juliet to Beauty and the Beast. And, like most folk tales, it's presenting a lesson by dealing with the fears people have the most and showing a way to defeat them. Children, especially, need these simple stories to deal with their irrational fears, and while some young girls grow up to believe their prince will rescue them some day, most outgrow those childish notions, much as the cease to believe in Santa Claus (or a giant talking mouse, for that matter). My own daughters grew up hearing these stories and watching the classic Disney films, but they don't believe someone will come along and save them--they're out making their own lives, just like most modern women (including many who were exposed to these stories and films) do.

And Meade, you hit on something that has always bothered me about Disney, the way it sanitizes the stories, which got worse and worse as it went on (in the 50s, Disney would have omitted the planned killing/pig's heart scene, e.g.--they were bolder in the 30s). Fairy tales are supposed to be a story of good and evil, where both are simplistic concepts, yet Disney sought to deny evil, making it comical (remember Capt. Hook?). The results can, at times, be entertaining, but it's not the stories or lessons that the folk tales were created to tell. FWIW, my mother used to do the same thing--changing the fairy tales she read us to suit her sanitized view she thought we were ready for; it just spurred my on to learn to read (I could by age 4) so I could read the story by myself and get all the gruesome scenes.

And BSG, I have no real dog in this fight; I'd avoid the movie like the plague because of what I think Disney will do with it (as I have avoided most of the more recent Disney films); I imagine if I ever have grandchildren I will watch things like Frozen and Tangled with them, maybe even live action remakes of cartoons, but otherwise I couldn't care less. I just don't like the source material being edited , something I have said many times.