Is it even worth bothering...

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Joe Guy
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Re: Is it even worth bothering...

Post by Joe Guy »

And Ted Cruz accuses an interviewer of having a political agenda then blames the media and criticizes democrats' proposals for gun control legislature.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BSc2dG5neY


MGMcAnick
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Re: Is it even worth bothering...

Post by MGMcAnick »

The first school shooting I recall was jus: t west of Wichita in 1985.
Here is an article about it 30 years later: https://www.kansas.com/news/local/crime ... 73096.html

It did no good as far as gun control is concerned. In fact any idiot can carry a gun in KS, open or concealed, with no training or a permit at all these days. I took the training, and got the permit, but never bothered to renew it since it was rendered moot. Constitutional carry, they call it. I only carried a gun when I was having to carry large amounts of cash home after work. Haven't done it in years.
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Econoline
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Re: Is it even worth bothering...

Post by Econoline »

This proposal makes a lot of sense (and please note that it doesn't involve banning or confiscating any guns).
Gun buying restrictions.jpg
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Burning Petard
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Re: Is it even worth bothering...

Post by Burning Petard »

Econoline, I can support this effort. It seems entirely appropriate to me, considering there is solid science behind the theory that the American male does not develop brain structure for good executive functions until they are 25-28 years old.

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Bicycle Bill
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Re: Is it even worth bothering...

Post by Bicycle Bill »

From an article entitled "America's Gun Culture - In Seven Charts", found on the BBC website.   I offer you a couple of the most pertinent.

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Also from the article:
Who opposes gun control?

Despite years of financial woes and internal strife, the National Rifle Association (NRA) remains the most powerful gun lobby in the United States, with a substantial budget to influence members of Congress on gun policy.

In January, the NRA filed for bankruptcy as part of a fraud case against some of its own senior staff.  Even after the move, it vowed to continue "confronting anti-Second Amendment activities, promoting firearm safety and training, and advancing public programs across the United States".  Over the last several election cycles, it, and other organizations, have consistently spent more on pro-gun rights messaging than their rivals in the gun control lobby.

Chart showing spending by gun rights and gun control groups. Updated 8 April 2021

Image

A number of states have also gone as far as to largely eliminate restrictions on who can carry a gun.  In June 2021, for example, Texas Governor Greg Abbott signed into law a "permitless carry bill" that allows the state's residents to carry handguns without a license or training. (emphasis mine)  Similarly, on 12 April, Georgia became the 25th state in the nation to eliminate the need for a permit to conceal (again, emphasis mine) or openly carry a firearm.  The law means any citizen of that state has the right to carry a firearm without a license or a permit.

The law was backed by the NRA, and leaders within the organization called the move "a monumental moment for the Second Amendment".
I think they are well and truly spot on with the points made in the article.  Sometimes it takes someone who is standing well outside the fracas to clearly see what is going on.
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Econoline
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Re: Is it even worth bothering...

Post by Econoline »

Econoline wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 12:17 am
This proposal makes a lot of sense (and please note that it doesn't involve banning or confiscating any guns).

Gun buying restrictions.jpg
Oh, and I should also point out that (unless until the SC officially overrules Roe v. Wade) the right to an abortion is still just as constitutional as the right to buy a gun...and all the restrictions in that proposal were passed *AFTER* the Supreme Court ruled that there was a constitutionally guaranteed right to privacy and therefore a constitutionally guaranteed right to abortion before a fetus can survive outside a uterus.
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Gob
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Re: Is it even worth bothering...

Post by Gob »

“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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Crackpot
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Re: Is it even worth bothering...

Post by Crackpot »

So they have at least 3 years of sober gun use?
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

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BoSoxGal
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Re: Is it even worth bothering...

Post by BoSoxGal »

Could someone explain to me where the infringing of rights exists in the gun laws of my state?

To obtain a gun license residents must meet with a law enforcement officer locally for an interview to assess fitness - yes it’s subjective. That process takes weeks so there is simply no impulse purchase of guns possible in the legal market. We also outlaw assault weapons and large capacity (over 10) ammunition magazines except in the ownership or possession of law enforcement and military for official use only. We also have a red flag law to remove firearms from persons in crisis. There are a bunch of other laws but those are probably the ones most likely to address mass shooting issues as well as suicide. All of these laws are subject to a due process right in court - if local law enforcement denies a resident a gun license, the denial can be challenged before a judge.

We enjoy the lowest rate of gun deaths nationally. I’m very grateful for these laws and the citizens who fought for them.

Jarl, how are these laws infringing your rights? I ask you because you’re you - but happy to hear from anyone else who cares to make an argument against common sense gun safety legislation.
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Re: Is it even worth bothering...

Post by MGMcAnick »

By mentioning KS constitutional carry interpretation of the law, I am not saying that I agree with it. I don't.

When Mrs Mc and I got our carry permits several years ago, we had to shoot at targets at a local range to prove that, well I guess it was to prove we might not hit a bystander. There was a window where spectators could see those who were shooting. A guy next to me said "Wow, that old lady can shoot". I turned to him and said "What old lady"? She was 63 at the time... And yes she can shoot. She hasn't shot at me yet, even after cataract surgery vastly improved her vision.

I also recall guys with pickup trucks with gun racks in the rear windows in the parking lot at my high school in the late '60s. During various hunting seasons there were guns in the racks. Most cars and trucks in the lot were left unlocked. The times have changed.
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Bicycle Bill
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Re: Is it even worth bothering...

Post by Bicycle Bill »

VERIFIED FACT:
—————————————————
Education Week, an independent news organization that has covered K–12 education since 1981, has also been tracking shootings that have resulted in firearm-related injuries or deaths while school is in session or during a school-sponsored event (they do not include incidents where someone authorized to carry a gun discharges their weapon in an official capacity).

This organization reports that there have been at least 27 shootings at schools or on school property in the first five months of 2022. Including those killed at Robb Elementary, these shootings have resulted in 27 people being killed, including 24 students or children. (emphasis mine)

In this same time period, there have been a total of 21 police officers killed by gunfire while in the line of duty (and one of those was an off-duty officer who had engaged with someone who was attempting to burglarize the officer's residence and was in pursuit of same when he was shot by a fellow officer who had mistaken him for the armed suspect), according to the "Officer Down Memorial Page", maintained by a non-profit organization dedicated to honoring America's fallen law enforcement officers.

This means that It is more dangerous to be a school child in America than a policeman.
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Re: Is it even worth bothering...

Post by Jarlaxle »

BoSoxGal wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 12:38 pm
Could someone explain to me where the infringing of rights exists in the gun laws of my state?

To obtain a gun license residents must meet with a law enforcement officer locally for an interview to assess fitness - yes it’s subjective. That process takes weeks so there is simply no impulse purchase of guns possible in the legal market. We also outlaw assault weapons and large capacity (over 10) ammunition magazines except in the ownership or possession of law enforcement and military for official use only. We also have a red flag law to remove firearms from persons in crisis. There are a bunch of other laws but those are probably the ones most likely to address mass shooting issues as well as suicide. All of these laws are subject to a due process right in court - if local law enforcement denies a resident a gun license, the denial can be challenged before a judge.

We enjoy the lowest rate of gun deaths nationally. I’m very grateful for these laws and the citizens who fought for them.

Jarl, how are these laws infringing your rights? I ask you because you’re you - but happy to hear from anyone else who cares to make an argument against common sense gun safety legislation.
Already answered, but in short: because it makes it dependent on fiat. (And some sheriffs simply denied all applications.) Many people simply lack the resources to fight a denial...and even if they do, it can take months. (Or years.) In practice, it's little different from a literacy test for voting.

The wealthy and well-connected, of course, can ALWAYS get permits. (Bloomberg, Pelosi, etc.)

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Joe Guy
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Re: Is it even worth bothering...

Post by Joe Guy »

For the record: Just another day in the U.S. I'm sure this is not news to anyone here...
Tulsa police: Five dead including shooter at Natalie Building in Warren Clinic

ULSA, Okla. — Multiple people are dead after a shooting at the Natalie Building in south Tulsa on Wednesday.

Five people are dead including the shooter, according to police. District 9 Tulsa City Councilor Jayme Fowler told 2 News that Tulsa police told him the shooter took his own life.

The Natalie Building is the newest building on the medical park and is connected to St. Francis via a sky bridge. The Saint Francis Hospital Ambulatory Surgery and Breast Center are both located in the Natalie Building

Yale is closed in the area and police are urging people to avoid the area. Families being evacuated will be reunited at a location at Memorial High School.

Police say they responded to the active shooter call around 5 p.m. and responded within three minutes to the second floor of the building. Officers say they could hear shots on that floor which is where they made contact with victims and the shooter.

Officers found the shooter dead along with a rifle and handgun. He has not been identified.

U.S. Rep. Kevin Hern (OK District 1) released the following statement after the shooting:

“A few moments ago, I spoke with Chief Wendell Franklin, who updated me on the terrible situation near St. Francis Hospital in Tulsa. There’s still a lot we don’t know about what happened tonight in the Natalie Building, but what we do know is this: multiple lives were taken from us, and many more changed forever. My prayers are with those who lost loved ones tonight, and with the entire Tulsa community as we recover from this tragedy. I am thankful for our law enforcement officers who responded quickly.”

Tulsa County Commissioners released statements following the shooting:

“The Tulsa County Board of County Commissioners is deeply saddened by the shooting at Saint Francis Hospital’s Natalie Medical Building, and we urge all Tulsa County residents to support those affected by this tragedy, including the families of victims and the employees at Saint Francis, by allowing law enforcement to secure and process the scene as so many grieve.” -Tulsa County Commissioner Karen Keith.

“Our thoughts and prayers are with the families who lost loved ones today and all the staff and bystanders who were subjected to the terrible actions of the shooter. I also want to thank all law enforcement and first responders who arrived at the scene so quickly following the shooting.” -Tulsa County Commissioner Stan Sallee.
source

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BoSoxGal
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Re: Is it even worth bothering...

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06CB2EC4-DE17-451B-A4D6-8899F44B6EE0.jpeg
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Burning Petard
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Re: Is it even worth bothering...

Post by Burning Petard »

Carefully read MGMc's post above. Guns carried in pickup trucks in a manner that made then easily accessible to the driver who was in many cases not yet 18 and probably could get the rifle into shooting position without leaving the driver's seat. Parked for extended periods of time with the vehicle unlocked and the firearm visible. As he posted, times have changed.

I am older than MGMc. When I was in high school in Kansas City Missouri, youth gang fights were known. Weapons were pipes, chains, knives. No guns.
Yet GUNS WERE AVAILABLE LEGALLY TO ANNYONE with the cash. NO AGE RESTRCTIONS NO BACKGROUND CHECKS. The only restriction was the unofficial social rules of acceptable community business practices. Every neighborhood gas station sold ammo--.30-06, .30-30 and .22LR along with a small selection of shotgun ammo, usually 12ga and .410. Shotgun ammo used to come in a nearly infinite variety based on diameter of barrel, length of the shell, size of the pellets, total weight of pellets, and amount of propellent (described as equivalent power to drams of black powder.) Oh yes, there were some guns that were banned from ordinary commerce: sawed off shotguns, fully auto guns, and anything with a silencer. Those three items are now permitted in some states, with heavy federal and state taxes involved. [as in many situations in the USofA, there are special rules if you have lots of money]

But there were no mass killings, except between the cops and certain notorious criminals. The main train station in Kansas City, MO has pits from bullets in the outer wall from a shootout between the FBI and the friends of a prisoner who was to be transferred across the country to testify in a trial. Some say it was to shut him up, rather than free him from the FBI. Both sides were using full auto 'tommy guns". It was also before ordinary citizens were banned from fully auto guns.

As he asked above--what has changed? Over this historical period the availability of guns has actually tightened up! Why do so many people now want to kill somebody?

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Econoline
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Re: Is it even worth bothering...

Post by Econoline »

Well, one thing that's changed is the number of guns per capita. It's gone from 0.35 per capita (35 guns per 100 people) in 1945 to 0.42 per capita in 1960 to 0.73 in 1980 to 0.94 in 2000 to 1.20 (120 guns per 100 people!) in 2017...and I'm guessing that the number is even higher than that now in 2022.

Here's another statistic that jumped out at me (which I came across while I was researching the numbers in the previous paragraph): Domestic gun makers produced 11.3 million firearms in 2020 (the latest year for which data is available), roughly triple the 3.9 million that were made in 2000, according to a report from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. Over that span, a time when the U.S. population increased 18%, the number of firearms churned out every year jumped 250%.
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Sue U
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Re: Is it even worth bothering...

Post by Sue U »

Too many guns too readily available to too many people. I don't know how often I have to say this.
GAH!

Burning Petard
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Re: Is it even worth bothering...

Post by Burning Petard »

And I say again, Sue, in my youth guns were MORE easily available yet few people wanted them. Reducing the legal availability of guns makes alot of sense.

Just as making drugs illegal has reduced the problem of death by drug over-dose.

But with firearms, there is the additional problem that they can be made from blocks of metal by an informed individual more quickly than growing pot in the garage and with less risk to the neighborhood than cooking your own crystal meth.

snailgate.

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