Is it even worth bothering...

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Burning Petard
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Re: Is it even worth bothering...

Post by Burning Petard »

"What is the world coming to? It's already OK in several places in America to purchase and carry a handgun ... a device that has, as its only purpose, the delivery of death and destruction"

Well BB, if that is true, then there should be no problem banning them on the basis of "merchantability" The product does not do its purpose. There are (by some estimates) more than 300 million firearms in private ownership in America. I have not seen a breakdown between longguns and hand guns. If I am to believe the general media conclusions, many of those long guns are 'black guns' or assault rifles that look real scary.

If that is their only purpose, they do not work very well. We don't have millions dead of gun shots each year. Most of those dead are actually by their own hands as suicide.

And PS, before you, dear reader, pigeon hole me as a gun nut, please observe that I believe the Second amendment should be repealed and Wayne LaPeer is the worst thing that has ever happened to the NRA.

snailgate

Jarlaxle
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Re: Is it even worth bothering...

Post by Jarlaxle »

Bicycle Bill wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 5:54 am
Not knowing
1) ALL the places that have concealed carry, and
2) the crime rates of these areas, I have to depend on anecdotal data to make an assessment.

However, since you assure me that there are SO MANY PLACES that already allow concealed carry (whether registered/licensed or not), and I see that there are still assaults/rapes/robberies/killings in just about every location in the country, I don't think you need to have the IQ of Einstein or Stephen Hawking to realize that the possibility of running up against someone who is packing heat doesn't seem to be doing a damned thing to slow down the criminals.

And my original complaint wasn't with the idea of concealed carry in and of itself ... it was, if I may remind you, with the concept of unrestricted concealed carry — quote: "without needing a permit, training, or anything but the money necessary to buy it" — and the addition of yet more firearms to the killing fields.
Image
-"BB"-
You are the one making the claim that permitless concealed carry "will end up with the streets being turned into a version of Hogan's Alley." Those are your words. If you make a claim like that, you should be able to at least ATTEMPT to support it...of course, I understand that expecting you to do even one minute of actual research before making a ridiculous claim is asking too much.

As of 1/1/2022, concealed carry is legal with no permit in 21 states (AK, AR, ID, IA, KS, KY, ME, MS,MO, MT, NH, ND, OK, SD, TN, TX, UT, VT, WV, WY). 4 more (Indiana, Ohio, Georgia, Alabama) passed it this year, 2 others (Louisiana, Nebraska) are considering bills and may pass it.

Jarlaxle
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Re: Is it even worth bothering...

Post by Jarlaxle »

BoSoxGal wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 6:10 am
Montana allows concealed carry by a shall issue permit that it is very hard to get denied, and open carry, and just about everyone has guns it’s a guns guns guns society.
Montana went to permitless concealed carry last year.

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Bicycle Bill
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Re: Is it even worth bothering...

Post by Bicycle Bill »

Burning Petard, re-read my original post.  My statement was that was handguns (and, to be honest, all firearms) were " ... a device that has, as its only purpose, the delivery of death and destruction".  Note that I did not say the death of humans only.  Hunting causes the death of animals, many of which are bred and maintained for the express purpose of serving as living targets for the Great Macho Hunter who goes out to blow away Bambi or shoot down Daffy Duck.  As for the person who thought himself so clever for coming up with the shirt that says a gun is "a cordless hole puncher",
Image
there are — if one actually needs to put a hole in a piece of paper — far most cost-effective and precise tools — also cordless — for doing so.  And with regards to "destruction", anyone who has found a bullet hole in their picture window, or driven down a back-country road and seen road signs that look like they were made of Swiss cheese, or had their power interrupted because someone used a power-line insulator or a junction box as a target knows exactly what I'm talking about.

So I stand by my original statement.  Throwing more guns into the mix and expecting that this is going to reduce crime and gun violence is like adding more and more lanes onto a highway and believing that this is truly the way to eliminate traffic congestion.
Image
-"BB"-
Yes, I suppose I could agree with you ... but then we'd both be wrong, wouldn't we?

Big RR
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Re: Is it even worth bothering...

Post by Big RR »

Bill--as someone who shot on my college rifle team for two years (and never hunted or fired a gun at anyone or any animal intending to main or kill the person/animal), I can attest that sport shooting it a nonlethal use of both long guns/rifles and handguns.

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Scooter
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Re: Is it even worth bothering...

Post by Scooter »

Image
"If you don't have a seat at the table, you're on the menu."

-- Author unknown

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Econoline
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Re: Is it even worth bothering...

Post by Econoline »

zero days since mass shooting.jpg
People who are wrong are just as sure they're right as people who are right. The only difference is, they're wrong.
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Burning Petard
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Re: Is it even worth bothering...

Post by Burning Petard »

I provide here a link to a stone kettle essay on school shootings from May 19, 2018.

https://www.stonekettle.com/2018/05/ban ... ce-of.html

rinse and repeat.

As Jim Wright concluded in his latest comment on this issue: Nothing will change until we as a nation find the goddamn strength to stand up to this murderous insanity and actually do something about it.

Although I do have an idea. Many states are actively moving to ban abortion. Since all firearms, at their moment of conception (whoops, manufacture) are POTENTIALLY instruments of mass shootings, the purchase or transfer of ownership of firearms should be subject to civil suit by individuals, with the burden of proof (preponderance of evidence, not beyond a reasonable doubt) on the gun possessor to establish they are not gonna use it to harm another person.

snailgate

ex-khobar Andy
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Re: Is it even worth bothering...

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

Treat guns - all guns, including antique pistols owned by collectors - like cars. Must be registered and insured. Naturally insurance will be less if you've had the requisite training maybe redone every five years, if you can prove you have effective security. (My insurance is reduced because my car has an alarm and I park it off the street every night. Different classes of registration, again just like vehicles. My DL won't let me drive an 18 wheeler.

Will make gun crime zero? Of course not. I'm certain it will reduce it.

You have the same right as everyone else to own a weapon, provided you meet the age, training, medical, insurance and registration criteria. I'd like insurance/registration criteria to include firing a test round which is kept on file so that the bullet striations are recorded, just like fingerprints. So if your weapon is used in a crime there is evidence connecting it to the event. (I am not sure if this is as unique a signature as fingerprints but it's certainly an indicator.)

Burning Petard
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Re: Is it even worth bothering...

Post by Burning Petard »

Obvious problem with your example, Andy. In the USofA it is possible to own and possess an automobile, and not register said vehicle, or insure it, or ever take it for a safety inspection, even if you have had your driver's permit revoked for repeated drunken driving and you have served time in prison for murder via vehicular homicide, and a court has declared you are crazy as a bed bug.

Just pay cash for it, have it delivered to your home, and never let it leave the premises. Many famers have such vehicles, rusted out piles of junk, but they still run and are useful for various chores and stay confined to the farm or ranch.

snailgate.

Big RR
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Re: Is it even worth bothering...

Post by Big RR »

Andy--in a country where we cannot even get mandated background checks for all sales of firearms (a very small burden), I don't hold much hope for any realistic reform. Sure, it won't prevent all (or even most) such crimes, but it's a start at least.

ex-khobar Andy
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Re: Is it even worth bothering...

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

Burning Petard wrote:
Wed May 25, 2022 12:56 pm
Obvious problem with your example, Andy. In the USofA it is possible to own and possess an automobile, and not register said vehicle, or insure it, or ever take it for a safety inspection, even if you have had your driver's permit revoked for repeated drunken driving and you have served time in prison for murder via vehicular homicide, and a court has declared you are crazy as a bed bug.

Just pay cash for it, have it delivered to your home, and never let it leave the premises. Many famers have such vehicles, rusted out piles of junk, but they still run and are useful for various chores and stay confined to the farm or ranch.

snailgate.
Oh it's difficult. Let's not fucking bother then.

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BoSoxGal
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Re: Is it even worth bothering...

Post by BoSoxGal »

9E996F69-1357-463A-9AC1-076F1FAAD671.jpeg
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

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Econoline
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Re: Is it even worth bothering...

Post by Econoline »

And this is JUST the schools!
1998 - PRESENT:
Thurston High School.
Columbine High School.
Heritage High School.
Deming Middle School.
Fort Gibson Middle School.
Buell Elementary School.
Lake Worth Middle School.
University of Arkansas.
Junipero Serra High School.
Santana High School.
Bishop Neumann High School.
Pacific Lutheran University.
Granite Hills High School.
Lew Wallace High School.
Martin Luther King, Jr. High School.
Appalachian School of Law.
Washington High School.
Conception Abbey.
Benjamin Tasker Middle School.
University of Arizona.
Lincoln High School.
John McDonogh High School.
Red Lion Area Junior High School.
Case Western Reserve University.
Rocori High School.
Ballou High School.
Randallstown High School.
Bowen High School.
Red Lake Senior High School.
Harlan Community Academy High School.
Campbell County High School.
Milwee Middle School.
Roseburg High School.
Pine Middle School.
Essex Elementary School.
Duquesne University.
Platte Canyon High School.
Weston High School.
West Nickel Mines School.
Joplin Memorial Middle School.
Henry Foss High School.
Compton Centennial High School.
Virginia Tech.
Success Tech Academy.
Miami Carol City Senior High School.
Hamilton High School.
Louisiana Technical College.
Mitchell High School.
E.O. Green Junior High School.
Northern Illinois University.
Lakota Middle School.
Knoxville Central High School.
Willoughby South High School.
Henry Ford High School.
University of Central Arkansas.
Dillard High School.
Dunbar High School.
Hampton University.
Harvard College.
Larose-Cut Off Middle School.
International Studies Academy.
Skyline College.
Discovery Middle School.
University of Alabama.
DeKalb School.
Deer Creek Middle School.
Ohio State University.
Mumford High School.
University of Texas.
Kelly Elementary School.
Marinette High School.
Aurora Central High School.
Millard South High School.
Martinsville West Middle School.
Worthing High School.
Millard South High School.
Highlands Intermediate School.
Cape Fear High School.
Chardon High School.
Episcopal School of Jacksonville.
Oikos University.
Hamilton High School.
Perry Hall School.
Normal Community High School.
University of South Alabama.
Banner Academy South.
University of Southern California.
Sandy Hook Elementary School.
Apostolic Revival Center Christian School.
Taft Union High School.
Osborn High School.
Stevens Institute of Business and Arts.
Hazard Community and Technical College.
Chicago State University.
Lone Star College-North.
Cesar Chavez High School.
Price Middle School.
University of Central Florida.
New River Community College.
Grambling State University.
Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
Ossie Ware Mitchell Middle School.
Ronald E. McNair Discovery Academy.
North Panola High School.
Carver High School.
Agape Christian Academy.
Sparks Middle School.
North Carolina A&T State University.
Stephenson High School.
Brashear High School.
West Orange High School.
Arapahoe High School.
Edison High School.
Liberty Technology Magnet High School.
Hillhouse High School.
Berrendo Middle School.
Purdue University.
South Carolina State University.
Los Angeles Valley College.
Charles F. Brush High School.
University of Southern California.
Georgia Regents University.
Academy of Knowledge Preschool.
Benjamin Banneker High School.
D. H. Conley High School.
East English Village Preparatory Academy.
Paine College.
Georgia Gwinnett College.
John F. Kennedy High School.
Seattle Pacific University.
Reynolds High School.
Indiana State University.
Albemarle High School.
Fern Creek Traditional High School.
Langston Hughes High School.
Marysville Pilchuck High School.
Florida State University.
Miami Carol City High School.
Rogers State University.
Rosemary Anderson High School.
Wisconsin Lutheran High School.
Frederick High School.
Tenaya Middle School.
Bethune-Cookman University.
Pershing Elementary School.
Wayne Community College.
J.B. Martin Middle School.
Southwestern Classical Academy.
Savannah State University.
Harrisburg High School.
Umpqua Community College.
Northern Arizona University.
Texas Southern University.
Tennessee State University.
Winston-Salem State University.
Mojave High School.
Lawrence Central High School.
Franklin High School.
Muskegon Heights High School.
Independence High School.
Madison High School.
Antigo High School.
University of California-Los Angeles.
Jeremiah Burke High School.
Alpine High School.
Townville Elementary School.
Vigor High School.
Linden McKinley STEM Academy.
June Jordan High School for Equity.
Union Middle School.
Mueller Park Junior High School.
West Liberty-Salem High School.
University of Washington.
King City High School.
North Park Elementary School.
North Lake College.
Freeman High School.
Mattoon High School.
Rancho Tehama Elementary School.
Aztec High School.
Wake Forest University.
Italy High School.
NET Charter High School.
Marshall County High School.
Sal Castro Middle School.
Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School
Great Mills High School
Central Michigan University
Huffman High School
Frederick Douglass High School
Forest High School
Highland High School
Dixon High School
Santa Fe High School
Noblesville West Middle School
University of North Carolina Charlotte
STEM School Highlands Ranch
Edgewood High School
Palm Beach Central High School
Providence Career & Technical Academy
Fairley High School (school bus)
Canyon Springs High School
Dennis Intermediate School
Florida International University
Central Elementary School
Cascade Middle School
Davidson High School
Prairie View A & M University
Altascocita High School
Central Academy of Excellence
Cleveland High School
Robert E. Lee High School
Cheyenne South High School
Grambling State University
Blountsville Elementary School
Holmes County, Mississippi (school bus)
Prescott High School
College of the Mainland
Wynbrooke Elementary School
UNC Charlotte
Riverview Florida (school bus)
Second Chance High School
Carman-Ainsworth High School
Williwaw Elementary School
Monroe Clark Middle School
Central Catholic High School
Jeanette High School
Eastern Hills High School
DeAnza High School
Ridgway High School
Reginald F. Lewis High School
Saugus High School
Pleasantville High School
Waukesha South High School
Oshkosh High School
Catholic Academy of New Haven
Bellaire High School
North Crowley High School
McAuliffe Elementary School
South Oak Cliff High School
Texas A&M University-Commerce
Sonora High School
Western Illinois University
Oxford High School
Robb Elementary School
People who are wrong are just as sure they're right as people who are right. The only difference is, they're wrong.
God @The Tweet of God

ex-khobar Andy
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Re: Is it even worth bothering...

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

Apparently the usual right wing nut jobs are, without a shred of evidence, blaming a “transsexual leftist illegal alien,” for being the Texas shooter. Paul Gosar (R-Arizona) has since deleted the Twitter post in which he made that claim.

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Joe Guy
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Re: Is it even worth bothering...

Post by Joe Guy »

The brilliant governor of Texas (Abbot) said regarding the school massacre, ".... I hate to say this but there are more people who are shot every weekend in Chicago than there are in schools in Texas....."

Anyone who says something that stupid after a horrible mass school shooting should be disemboweled or at least injected with monkey pox but instead what we do in the U.S.A. is elect them to powerful political offices.

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Gob
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Re: Is it even worth bothering...

Post by Gob »

283868121_5458894837456527_462944443870516038_n.jpg
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

Big RR
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Re: Is it even worth bothering...

Post by Big RR »

Joe Guy wrote:
Thu May 26, 2022 5:03 am
The brilliant governor of Texas (Abbot) said regarding the school massacre, ".... I hate to say this but there are more people who are shot every weekend in Chicago than there are in schools in Texas....."

Anyone who says something that stupid after a horrible mass school shooting should be disemboweled or at least injected with monkey pox but instead what we do in the U.S.A. is elect them to powerful political offices.
I don't know if I can even imagine a more asinine or insensitive statement than that. What an asshole.

Burning Petard
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Re: Is it even worth bothering...

Post by Burning Petard »

Andy, my criticism of your proposal to regulate legal possession of guns in a manner similar to that of cars is not that it is difficult, but that I think it will not be effective.

snailgate.

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Joe Guy
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Re: Is it even worth bothering...

Post by Joe Guy »

Meanwhile, here in California....
Gun, ammo found in 2nd grader's desk at Sacramento school

SACRAMENTO, Calif. (AP) — A gun and a loaded magazine were found in a second-grade student's desk at a California school after other students alerted the staff that a classmate had brought the weapon, officials said.

The incident happened Tuesday at Edward Kemble Elementary in Sacramento, the Sacramento City Unified School District said in a statement to families.

School staff called police “who secured the weapon and opened an investigation,” the statement said.

“We are grateful that this incident did not result in a tragedy such as those that districts have experienced, including today’s tragic and senseless mass shooting at Robb Elementary in Uvalde, Texas,” the school district said. “This is due in large part to the bravery and awareness of the students who came forward and alerted staff at Kemble today.”

In Texas, an 18-year-old gunman on Tuesday fatally shot 19 children and two teachers before law enforcement officers killed him.

The Sacramento school district said the incident involving the second-grader was a reminder of the importance of the district's mantra to students of “See something, say something” when something seems wrong in school settings.

Sacramento police did not immediately return a telephone message Wednesday seeking more information about the event.
source

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